Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[moodz]

Hi Midas, we keep missing the point here. I am talking about new designs here such as Moodz, Tinkerer's schematics etc. Not referring to known IP that maybe is being developed here further that has potential to fuel fire for such big Companies and eventually giving them a reason to sue anybody in court.

We do not know the breach of IP that was infringed with the current case ATM but we can assume it has something to do with the approach in timing and processing of such data in a way that conflicts a existing Companies IP.

I am saying, ferinstance take Moodz idea in this case, send it off to whoever may have a concern. Let it known to whoever has a interest and then go about your business in further developing your idea IF no infringement of existing IP is breached.

Sid

What ... send it off so they can copy it ??

I have already put a plan in place ...I have legally transferred ownership of my IP to a holding company.....the holding company has placed a value of 0$ on the IP ( as it is not being sold / manufactured etc etc and it is only a cost to them in terms of development , patenting etc etc ) ..however I am subcontracted ( not employed ) by the company to develop and work on ideas which I then transfer to them for no consideration ( as I am contracted by them to develop the ideas ... so they own my output effectively ) ...

However .... I own shares in the company .... if the IP ever does become worth something ( patent, product , licencing etc etc ) ... then I will get a return because I am a voting shareholder and the constitution of the company is structured to return any profit after costs ( like patents ) to the shareholders BTW ...only to the shareholders and investors who supported that particular project.

Because the assets of the company are valued at $0 there is nothing to sue for and liability is limited to the company ... cant sue the shareholders LOL or the directors ( the subcontractors did the work ) as the company engaged the subcontractors in good faith.... additionally all the knowledge or "Trade Secrets" on how to use the IP is only known to the shareholders/contractors ... the company has no technical staff ... so any aggressors would end up with nothing for their efforts ... particularly because if the company is wound up ...the aggressor would not be at the top of the creditors list.

moodz

[sido]

One of the drawbacks of self-production is that you are now personally liable for infringement. As Midas says, you need to hire a patent attorney and do due diligence in ensuring you're clear of patents.

Carl, by being open, honest and also have taken reasonable steps to avoid IP infringements, you are minimizing the risk of being sued for damages in lost revenue etc....

What your saying is that the current new designs presented here are in breach of somebodys IP in some way and whatever is presented open here is worth ziltch in whatever value is put on it???. Well if that is the case it makes me wonder what this forum is all about after all.

Sid

[sido]

Yeah no one wants to infringe IP. I'm just saying letting a company know what your doing or planning on doing doesn't mean they are neccessarilly going to tell you straight away if you are infringing. You really need to hire your own patent lawyer. What would be really nice, not sure if its realistic (or realistically priced), would be an indemnification from a law firm where they agree to cover you in the event you are sued at some point in the future.

Midas

Your right about a Company not being obliged to respond. Although a Company in receipt of such documents and in there best interest in protecting there IP if breached, will take necessary steps to prevent such infringements occurring if its found to be the case. The court system will ask....were you aware of such impending own IP infringements and the question will be also be asked......what did you do about it at that time known.

Sid

[Carl-NC]

One of the drawbacks of self-production is that you are now personally liable for infringement. As Midas says, you need to hire a patent attorney and do due diligence in ensuring you're clear of patents.

[Midas]

Hi Midas, we keep missing the point here. I am talking about new designs here such as Moodz, Tinkerer's schematics etc. Not referring to known IP that maybe is being developed here further that has potential to fuel fire for such big Companies and eventually giving them a reason to sue anybody in court.

We do not know the breach of IP that was infringed with the current case ATM but we can assume it has something to do with the approach in timing and processing of such data in a way that conflicts a existing Companies IP.

I am saying, ferinstance take Moodz idea in this case, send it off to whoever may have a concern. Let it known to whoever has a interest and then go about your business in further developing your idea IF no infringement of existing IP is breached.

Sid

Yeah no one wants to infringe IP. I'm just saying letting a company know what your doing or planning on doing doesn't mean they are neccessarilly going to tell you straight away if you are infringing. You really need to hire your own patent lawyer. What would be really nice, not sure if its realistic (or realistically priced), would be an indemnification from a law firm where they agree to cover you in the event you are sued at some point in the future.

Midas

[sido]

Midas,

I also imagine that the behaviour of the parties might be important in any damages determination.

Chudster

Chudster, sure is the case in any defense in such court appearances.

Sid

[sido]

Unfortunetly Sid I don't believe there is any onus on a patent holder to enforce a patent as soon as they become aware of an infringement or 'forever hold their peace'. If they want to wait till you've got an established business so that your actually worth suing then thats their right. If you are really obvious about it AND the company offered others use of the IP under license then they probably would have an obligation to their licencies to act. But as far as I'm aware though ML don't offer their tech to anyone else under license, so when and whether they sue or not probably comes down to what will be most profitable for them.

Midas

Hi Midas, we keep missing the point here. I am talking about new designs here such as Moodz, Tinkerer's schematics etc. Not referring to known IP that maybe is being developed here further that has potential to fuel fire for such big Companies and eventually giving them a reason to sue anybody in court.

We do not know the breach of IP that was infringed with the current case ATM but we can assume it has something to do with the approach in timing and processing of such data in a way that conflicts a existing Companies IP.

I am saying, ferinstance take Moodz idea in this case, send it off to whoever may have a concern. Let it known to whoever has a interest and then go about your business in further developing your idea IF no infringement of existing IP is breached.

Sid

[chudster]

Midas,

Sid is kind of right.

If you do not act quickly but were aware of the infringement, the court may not grant an injunction (eg stopping you from selling) and that is a key thing because for a small player it chokes off money supply to defend the action. I also imagine that the behaviour of the parties might be important in any damages determination.

But you are also right that their slow action does not make it go away.

Chudster

[Midas]

Was referring to new ideas here and not based on known IP.

Well if it gets to that point of intimidation, where maybe kits will be become available to hobbiests and the concern is fear of being sued.......then how about sending off the open published material (even if it means program code without source) by direct mail, email etc to all Companies in question prior to manufacture of such kits. Allow them enough time to evaluate if there own IP has been infringed. Either you get a response of concern or hear nothing from it.

Post it on there open forums also if you have not heard from them, even if they would not like it. Get several people to take screen shots for further back up documents if need to be. Make it harder for them to use an excuse and avoid negligence, that they were not aware of a given design going into some form of production or another excuse that, we allowed its design parameters only open for Educational and R&D purposes and did not know of its pending production, even though we new it was breaching some part of our IP in its early design stage.

Make every effort to show them your intention is to manufacture a given new idea if thats what your after, either as kits or whatever and show them this is the material it will be based upon and hopefully no intentional infringement of IP is breached.

It seams this is a extreme final approach to avoid any such IP infringement and being sued down the track in court. If the new design idea is good enough for a given Company to take it, expand on it and use it for there own purposes. I am sure they will find it hard to patent it for there own exclusive rights.

And even if they do, this will allow people here to continue on with further design of a chosen and agreed platform without any of the recent set backs.

Enough said from me and wish everyone a positive outcome in this hobby of detector design.

Sid

Unfortunetly Sid I don't believe there is any onus on a patent holder to enforce a patent as soon as they become aware of an infringement or 'forever hold their peace'. If they want to wait till you've got an established business so that your actually worth suing then thats their right. If you are really obvious about it AND the company offered others use of the IP under license then they probably would have an obligation to their licencies to act. But as far as I'm aware though ML don't offer their tech to anyone else under license, so when and whether they sue or not probably comes down to what will be most profitable for them.

Midas

[sido]

Careful with this advice Sid. A company could reasonably argue that the info was published but their patent was only used for non infringing use (ie Educational Use and R&D) and so they took no action- however because of action X infringement has now occurred.

Chudster

Was referring to new ideas here and not based on known IP.

Well if it gets to that point of intimidation, where maybe kits will be become available to hobbiests and the concern is fear of being sued.......then how about sending off the open published material (even if it means program code without source) by direct mail, email etc to all Companies in question prior to manufacture of such kits. Allow them enough time to evaluate if there own IP has been infringed. Either you get a response of concern or hear nothing from it.

Post it on there open forums also if you have not heard from them, even if they would not like it. Get several people to take screen shots for further back up documents if need to be. Make it harder for them to use an excuse and avoid negligence, that they were not aware of a given design going into some form of production or another excuse that, we allowed its design parameters only open for Educational and R&D purposes and did not know of its pending production, even though we new it was breaching some part of our IP in its early design stage.

Make every effort to show them your intention is to manufacture a given new idea if thats what your after, either as kits or whatever and show them this is the material it will be based upon and hopefully no intentional infringement of IP is breached.

It seams this is a extreme final approach to avoid any such IP infringement and being sued down the track in court. If the new design idea is good enough for a given Company to take it, expand on it and use it for there own purposes. I am sure they will find it hard to patent it for there own exclusive rights.

And even if they do, this will allow people here to continue on with further design of a chosen and agreed platform without any of the recent set backs.

Enough said from me and wish everyone a positive outcome in this hobby of detector design.

Sid

[goldnugget]

Hi all....Ive been lurking for a while but this is my first post here.

I think even early stage discussions you need to be cautious as unique and novel concepts discussed or mentioned in public can still be taken and run with by can established company without any further discussion or permision requests from them and patented as their own. I believe this has happened already in my case where I was discussing a combination of technologies within a detecting machine back in 2010 and then last weekend spotted a machine with 3 publicised features I had discussed in a thread. After reviewing a patent based on the machine I see a fourth distinct and unique feature discussed in the thread was included in the patent.
The thread in question was on Finders forum and if you wanted to have a look at that and draw your own conclusion, the thread you are looking for is 'Hmmm...is it novel' (Only a few threads below the most recent). That forum is one that was and still is frequented by either the manufacturer itself or their representatives in Australia. To me, the coincedences are too many to be incorporated within one machine in the time frame after that post. Personally I have no doubt of what has happened and even if it was one employee that read the post and decided to pass it off as his own that the matter should be rectified in good faith now that it is known (but wont hold my breath).

My suggestion is this. Sort out the whos who of your group, then go private discussing 'ANY' aspect of any new developments relating to any proposed new machine or components realted at all to any new machine. WHile going public may offer some notable reference, it will still have to go to court to reach a suitable outcome.

Good luck with it.

[ivconic]

Careful with this advice Sid. A company could reasonably argue that the info was published but their patent was only used for non infringing use (ie Educational Use and R&D) and so they took no action- however because of action X infringement has now occurred.

Ivconic,
Again, per my previous post. Are you suggesting some kind of well funded group is needed or desirable? Don't expect that to happen. Any savvy investor will look at the intensity of competition and barriers to entry and ask where are your patents and how will you beat the incumbent players? Google "Porter's Five Forces". It is true too that no one will pay you for your technology out of the goodness of their heart. It would be a commercial deal subject to market conditions including hard times.

So take it that you are unlikely to be given millions to pursue this. I would argue that we have some strategic advantages that industry players have a hard time in replicating. The problem is that we continue to play by their rules and your conclusion that this is a losing game for us appears sound. Sort of like playing poker where the rules are that they can see your cards and you can't see theirs. They have millions and you have $100 to bet.

So what are the rule changes that we would like and are able to make? What can we do that they cannot?

Or is it time to change hobbies and buy that stamp album?

Chudster

Sadly that's true.
Yes i think such well funded group is desirable.
Plain exchanging ideas and works between several individuals is nothing without having status of "legal-form-subject" (excuse me for my proper French) in eyes of
the (preferably international) law.
Yet, legal-form-subject status is not possible without more serious organizing, logistic and ... of course the funds!
Without such approach, what we'll have?
Just a group of individuals with nice intentions and ideas; but "vulnerable" and liable to any kind of malversation ... same as we have now.

[chudster]

By keeping your ideas open here for all to see, it allows all interested Metal Detector Companies to evaluate if any IP has been infringed. No excuse for a major metal detector company not to be aware of a forum of this nature. In a court system, it is reasonable to assume that a business has taken measured steps to protect there IP. The Company in question has before voiced there concerns here previously with the published SD2000 Schematics, so we assume and so will the court system for that matter that they watch this space, on this forum on a regular basis.

If a Company ignores to take further action (either by email, letter of concern etc) when they have become aware of such infringements and have not taken timely steps to intervene then it is considered that they have no vested interest and see no IP infringed.

Eventually if you are taken to court, the overall court decision outcome will turn in your favor when ever you argue this point. The argument is negligence on there behalf.

Publish whatever you want here. If you do not hear from anyone voicing there concerns of infringing IP in months down the track, then you have nothing to worry about and its assumed that no IP has been breached.

In saying this, you do have to make a reasonable attempt to check known existing IP so no infringement is encountered on your behalf.

Oh and BTW, do not patent it, worst mistake you could ever do. If its worth patenting, then consider selling the idea to a major player, which avoids you the legal loopholes that can come back to bite you..

Sid

Careful with this advice Sid. A company could reasonably argue that the info was published but their patent was only used for non infringing use (ie Educational Use and R&D) and so they took no action- however because of action X infringement has now occurred.

Ivconic,
Again, per my previous post. Are you suggesting some kind of well funded group is needed or desirable? Don't expect that to happen. Any savvy investor will look at the intensity of competition and barriers to entry and ask where are your patents and how will you beat the incumbent players? Google "Porter's Five Forces". It is true too that no one will pay you for your technology out of the goodness of their heart. It would be a commercial deal subject to market conditions including hard times.

So take it that you are unlikely to be given millions to pursue this. I would argue that we have some strategic advantages that industry players have a hard time in replicating. The problem is that we continue to play by their rules and your conclusion that this is a losing game for us appears sound. Sort of like playing poker where the rules are that they can see your cards and you can't see theirs. They have millions and you have $100 to bet.

So what are the rule changes that we would like and are able to make? What can we do that they cannot?

Or is it time to change hobbies and buy that stamp album?

Chudster

[sido]

By keeping your ideas open here for all to see, it allows all interested Metal Detector Companies to evaluate if any IP has been infringed. No excuse for a major metal detector company not to be aware of a forum of this nature. In a court system, it is reasonable to assume that a business has taken measured steps to protect there IP. The Company in question has before voiced there concerns here previously with the published SD2000 Schematics, so we assume and so will the court system for that matter that they watch this space, on this forum on a regular basis.

If a Company ignores to take further action (either by email, letter of concern etc) when they have become aware of such infringements and have not taken timely steps to intervene then it is considered that they have no vested interest and see no IP infringed.

Eventually if you are taken to court, the overall court decision outcome will turn in your favor when ever you argue this point. The argument is negligence on there behalf.

Publish whatever you want here. If you do not hear from anyone voicing there concerns of infringing IP in months down the track, then you have nothing to worry about and its assumed that no IP has been breached.

In saying this, you do have to make a reasonable attempt to check known existing IP so no infringement is encountered on your behalf.

Oh and BTW, do not patent it, worst mistake you could ever do. If its worth patenting, then consider selling the idea to a major player, which avoids you the legal loopholes that can come back to bite you..

Sid

[ivconic]

...
Overall, one solution is to work with an industry player to bring your design to market. There is no reason why that could not even be Minelab. Industry players are already are invested in the game and know how to play.

I think we are a smart and innovative enough bunch to figure out how to organize and work together to solve this problem.

Chudster

In this world where money talks and .... walks that's pretty naive attitude.
Especially now when terrible economic crises eating up the whole world.
Bankruptcy and recession are knocking on everybody's door.
So i am not enthusiastic upon any chance that some of the major players will act fair upon small independent and unprotected idea.
These are rapacity times.
Therefore only way out from this would be a group of people to organize in some legal form.
But behind them there still should be strong financial backup or otherwise those people will just waste time.
No money - no game.
Sad.