Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[tjmlena]

Field testing of the prototypes is certainly of extreme importance. I am glad to know that you are willing and able to do this.
When you speak of "the best metal detector", it is a bit more difficult.

The best detector for what purpose? Could you expand on that?

"build pcb´s and to burn diodes" This is another point that needs elucidation. What kind of PCB? Through hole or surface mount?

What testing equipment do you have? What are your lab capabilities?

There are many others like you. there is place for everybody in a design group, but the jobs allocated to each need to be tailored according to each ones capabilities.

Tinkerer

Hi Tinkerer.
Remind everyone that I'm new to metal detector world.
Im not talking about specific detector when say best metal detector, but at least one detector similar or better than commercial units.
As mentioned in previous posts several units for different tasks......
2nd point: I have no laboratory but I have an associate with electronic workshop/studio with oscilloscope etc.... and Im thinking to buy 1 logic analyzer and +1 soldering station + 1 pcb insulator.
About field testing, no problems, I can do it all day long. I have too much spare time.

Count me in.

[andyt]

Have to say reading this thread is confusing. I tried reading the other thread to find out what had allegedly been infringed but could not work it out!

If I may just put my oar in!

You can set up a group of full disclosure open source...that you can do...won't stop people taking action if the open source is potentially their IP though. Think android, java, linux.

If you want to own something, have the IP, you have no choice but to sign every member up to a non disclosure agreement. If you don't you cannot patent your ideas as they will have be subject to pre-disclosure. Even if you have a great idea that you want to sell to a metal detector manufacturer you will need everyone signed up to NDA. Then if you dont go straight for a patent, you will have to sign an NDA with a metal detector manufacturer to discuss your IP (they may not want to do this in case their developments overlap yours and cause legal issues).

Frankly us engineers are a proud lot. The engineers from a brand metal detector company will not think they can take your whole design ready for manufacture, they will assume a lot of polishing is required. Frankly thats what they do...so let them do it. If you want to sell it to a metal detecting company put it in any old box and make sure the electronics work...sell them that. If they like it, they will polish it and put it in a nice shiny box.

If you want to make a product and you dont want to get a big cash investor, then target a niche market. You need something that the big guys will not worry about because its not a big market. They are more likely to leave you alone as the size of the market is not worth worrying about. (assuming they dont think you are infringing their IP, in which case they may feel they have to protect it). Small target market means your small band will be able to sell into it without needing huge marketing and distribution. Kits are by their nature a niche market, most people dont want to bother assembling (and when they do they expect it to be priced little more than the cost of the parts) and so its not a market the big guys are interested in.

In short, if you want to open everything and give away the knowledge thats great. If you dont and really want to commercialise using a group of people across the net you must have NDAs in place as a minimum. The only guy thats could avoid their input being copied is the firmware guy if he insists on programming (and blowing the protection fuse) in each micro. If you then release a product without further protection, well you guys know from this site...someone will just draw a circuit from the PCB.

If you want to commercialise, NDAs are required as the absolute minimum.

At the start of this thread it seemed to be about open source...but it now seems to be about making money. Open IP is easy...just publish it and hope nobody thinks you have published their IP. If you want to make money from IP think NDAs, real ones signed by each participant. If you want to sell niche product and people are putting grunt work in (not special IP work) then you can do that as a team if you can control people...until you decide who gets the rewards (what about that guy that did hardly anything...should he get a fair share?).

I once was talking to a local coordinator for a charity, I suggested it was easy to organise the staff because they were there as volunteers and wanted to be there. He said it was much worse, when you pay people you can tell them to do it or lose their job. When they are volunteers you have to massage their egos and they do what they like.

[chudster]

"Buying time prior to setting up production?" Whom are we trying to fool here. Do you have any idea how many millions of dollars it needs to enter into the competitive metal detector manufacturing business?
More likely, a joint developed design could be sold to a manufacturer. At what price? If it takes several hundred thousand dollars to develop a new design, how much would a manufacturer pay for a proven and tested finished design? How much would the design group need to spend on its design? Design is mostly many hours of work. If we could divide 10,000 hours of work between a group of 20 and accomplish these hours in one year, it would mean about 10 hours average for each group member, per week. That looks feasible, but would need very much motivation.

Monolith

Monolith,

I respect your view and would like to know more. You are right about the realities of entering production. Essentially what you are saying is that we are a band of part timers. We don't have a cohesive design methodology and it seems most people like it that way or it would be too much like work. No deadlines and no pressure and no direction. Especially no discipline to draw a line in the sand and make something in favour of tinkering for the next improvement. If someone became El Capitan and drew up a project plan and started giving everyone tasks with deadlines, would none be met and people would do what they like instead? Its not a matter of lack of brains or talent, but after reading your post and considering IBGold's comments, it makes me question if we could organise to produce a professional detector design or designs.

On the other hand, there are lots of talented people, if we could band together and work effectively, there is no reason why we could not turn out designs like the Arduino folks. They have a sense of purpose and they have changed the world with electronic designs with some structure and discipline.

Leaving the market entry problem aside, I am sure interested in what other folks think. Do we have what it takes to come up with a professional design or designs? Can a lone person do it or what is the critical mass, knowledge and behaviours for a successful team? A 'charter' must support those.

Chudster

[Monolith]

Totally agree with Davor......quoted below:

"Buying time prior to setting up production? Just shut up and work on your production"

or in the forums interest and all involved, work towards a working product, tested in the field and confirmed. Maybe a time comes when one just keeps his ideas to himself. The limitations or set backs of late has put a sour note, but should not be a negative and deterring factor in pursuing your main goal or interest.

Sid

"Buying time prior to setting up production?" Whom are we trying to fool here. Do you have any idea how many millions of dollars it needs to enter into the competitive metal detector manufacturing business?
More likely, a joint developed design could be sold to a manufacturer. At what price? If it takes several hundred thousand dollars to develop a new design, how much would a manufacturer pay for a proven and tested finished design? How much would the design group need to spend on its design? Design is mostly many hours of work. If we could divide 10,000 hours of work between a group of 20 and accomplish these hours in one year, it would mean about 10 hours average for each group member, per week. That looks feasible, but would need very much motivation.

Monolith

[Tinkerer]

I agree with Tinkerer, but ...

Why not all of us collaborate to develop the best metal detector on Geotech, TEM based, and OPEN SOURCE?
Because we want it all done AND most users have not sufficient knowledge, including me!

After all I'm willing to learn and test, to build pcb´s and to burn diodes. And the most important = Field Testing of prototypes in real field conditions.

AnyOne Is PointeD????

tj.malena

Field testing of the prototypes is certainly of extreme importance. I am glad to know that you are willing and able to do this.
When you speak of "the best metal detector", it is a bit more difficult.

The best detector for what purpose? Could you expand on that?

"build pcb´s and to burn diodes" This is another point that needs elucidation. What kind of PCB? Through hole or surface mount?

What testing equipment do you have? What are your lab capabilities?

There are many others like you. there is place for everybody in a design group, but the jobs allocated to each need to be tailored according to each ones capabilities.

Tinkerer

[hdphilip]

if anything I'd be more concerned if mine labs recruited chudster to write their software..............

video in my thread in a little while

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

I figure Minelab will be out of business in a few months. Thanks for your hard work. It is a shame you do not go after the LRL crew as hard.

[hdphilip]

Designing, building, testing and selling the product is a lot of work. Well established businesses, spend many hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop a new product and bring to the market. It would be foolish self-illusion for a single person to want to do that.

yup, thats the bottom line..... A hobbyist at best, may be able to produce a kit (PC board and a bag of parts), but with the modern technology used, even building the kit may be beyond the skill set of the weekend warrior.

So where my reward for building and experimenting?

Pressing the "post" button on my thread for some sort of experiment that I've done.

Because I wish share it with everyone,

Including all the metal detector companies.

And maybe if the metal detector companies like my idea, They will contact me!
(just pick up your local phone directory, look up hdphilip, that's with 1 "L" and call me)

Philip

now, excuse me, i need to get back to some software evaluation of target detection theories chudster helping me with....
all i can say is.... their so cool.....

[Tinkerer]

Detectormods says Patent everything try to get into the market but don't take money from investors because they will take advantage of you. My addition: BTW watch out that when your patent is granted an industry player does not take you to court.

Davor, Don't patent because it will sap your money and energy. Go fast to market instead. But to do that (unless you are Carl and can design a commercial detector yourself with closed eyes) you need to disclose to others to get help but then they modify and patent or it will be years. My addition: But watch out because if you've also used the patents of others an industry player will take you to court to prevent your entry. Don't expect financial backing. Business people will look at this industry, see patent litigious players and ask where are your patents for your unique advantage? Remember too you need to build a distribution chain and don't expect all the dealers to suddenly support you.

So for those with a plastic mind to take the correct advice of both gentlemen the solution is obvious.

1) Patent without patenting.
2) Enter the market fast without entering the market.
3) Collaborate for speed.

When we've done that we'll be happy and successful.

So who is up for that solution?

Chudster

Protect without patenting, can it be done?

From tested product to market is a steep, rocky road, unless the product has been designed for a very specific market. To design for a specific market means first the market research has to be done.

Designing, building, testing and selling the product is a lot of work. Well established businesses, spend many hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop a new product and bring to the market. It would be foolish self-illusion for a single person to want to do that.

Metal detectors, like any modern technology is changing fast. The only way to compete is to stay one step ahead.

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

I strongly oppose this way of thinking. You as a person with knowledge on some solution have one, and only one advantage against the rest of the world: time. If you use your time advantage to set up production and churn up some $$ in a process, fine. If not, you'll not see a single ¢ no matter what. Patents? The best way to lose your time advantage and most probably sanity as well. Royal tedious waste of time. Patents make sense only in case you have big money to defend your puny little patent in court, and be sure that no one will buy it or pay any royalty unless you force it in court.

Shortly, encouraging people to patent their ideas is the best way to ruin them in every possible way, and lose time, money, and worst of all - motivation.

I can see one and only one use for a patent: some incredibly stupid educational systems (including the one in my country) will grant you a professorship if you have a patent filled in your name. Any patent. (as if they care)

Buying time prior to setting up production? Just shut up and work on your production. The stupidest thing to do in this stage is compiling a patent.

Good points.

Tinkerer

[sido]

Totally agree with Davor......quoted below:

"Buying time prior to setting up production? Just shut up and work on your production"

or in the forums interest and all involved, work towards a working product, tested in the field and confirmed. Maybe a time comes when one just keeps his ideas to himself. The limitations or set backs of late has put a sour note, but should not be a negative and deterring factor in pursuing your main goal or interest.

Sid

[sido]

If anyone is willing to post here on the Forum for all to see, then it should be of no concern to whomever sees the posts.

Do what you feel comfortable with, thats all.

Sid

[chudster]

Detectormods says Patent everything try to get into the market but don't take money from investors because they will take advantage of you. My addition: BTW watch out that when your patent is granted an industry player does not take you to court.

Davor, Don't patent because it will sap your money and energy. Go fast to market instead. But to do that (unless you are Carl and can design a commercial detector yourself with closed eyes) you need to disclose to others to get help but then they modify and patent or it will be years. My addition: But watch out because if you've also used the patents of others an industry player will take you to court to prevent your entry. Don't expect financial backing. Business people will look at this industry, see patent litigious players and ask where are your patents for your unique advantage? Remember too you need to build a distribution chain and don't expect all the dealers to suddenly support you.

So for those with a plastic mind to take the correct advice of both gentlemen the solution is obvious.

1) Patent without patenting.
2) Enter the market fast without entering the market.
3) Collaborate for speed.

When we've done that we'll be happy and successful.

So who is up for that solution?

Chudster

[Davor]

I strongly oppose this way of thinking. You as a person with knowledge on some solution have one, and only one advantage against the rest of the world: time. If you use your time advantage to set up production and churn up some $$ in a process, fine. If not, you'll not see a single ¢ no matter what. Patents? The best way to lose your time advantage and most probably sanity as well. Royal tedious waste of time. Patents make sense only in case you have big money to defend your puny little patent in court, and be sure that no one will buy it or pay any royalty unless you force it in court.

Shortly, encouraging people to patent their ideas is the best way to ruin them in every possible way, and lose time, money, and worst of all - motivation.

I can see one and only one use for a patent: some incredibly stupid educational systems (including the one in my country) will grant you a professorship if you have a patent filled in your name. Any patent. (as if they care)

Buying time prior to setting up production? Just shut up and work on your production. The stupidest thing to do in this stage is compiling a patent.

[detectormods]

Some great wisdom in the discussion.

Looking forward to consensus and enough people to embrace open innovation.

Enough said for now.

Chudster

My advice,

If you have a really good innovative design or I.P that is ground breaking, do not give it away. Do not even hint at it as other researchers or companies will try to to work out what you have done, they will improve it and patent it.

Save your $$ and patent the innovation or invention. Watch out for technology investors, they are likely to take most of the pie and leave you with crumbs.

I learned my lesson in regards to posting technical information on the net... just do not do it. Most people who do not have a commercial background are clueless to the value of their I.P They give away hundreds of thousands of dollars just because they are in a hobby mindset. Some of the largest companies started in the garage and grew into multi million dollar organizations. Do not sell yourself short and give things away out of your own ignorance.

I have seen plenty of I.P posted over the years that was refined and is now being used commercially, and the guy who posted it in the first place never receives a cent.

If you do not have a patent then you have NO protection if some one uses your design or I.P in there products.

Get the best Patent advice that you can afford, also find a attorney skilled in the relevant art.