Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[Midas]

Have you guys considered that if a ML employee did want to join up and contribute to this open project thingy, that they would actually be far less restricted in the help the could provide if they DID keep it secret? And if their intention is just to 'steal' ideas and not contribute then why would they bother signing up at all. After all the information is going to be there for all to see anyway.. its an OPEN project. Its probably a mistake to think that all employees of a big company are going to share the same anti-competitive ethos. A ML dissenter could become one of the most valuable contributors... especially if it was one of their patent lawyers.

BTW That patent of saving setting on turn off made me laugh... in lieu of crying. Does anyone have a link to it ? I assume that other MD manufacturers are completely ignoring it.

Midas

[chudster]

Chudster, as I said before I am not associated with Minelab in any way at all. I changed my avatar to Whites. Does that now mean I am hooked up with Whites? I think not. Please stop with the guessing game. WM6 has a coil pictured in his avatar that is made by a company. Ask him his hookup with a company!

Understand that I have no malice towards or vendetta against Minelab despite them causing me much work to create a safe innovation environment for us all to work in. Minelab is not the issue for me and the Code of Conduct is not there to exclude Minelab from being involved in the Open Detector if they want to.

The issue is that you have signed up to a code of conduct that says:
"I will declare conflicts of interest with industry. If I work for or obtain my living as an employee, agent or contractor or hold any other particular allegiance to a company that sells metal detectors or their components, then I will declare that openly and preferably note that in my forum signature or another prominent place in my communications."

If you have any industry affiliation, it should be declared. You have said that you are not associated with Minelab. I take your word for that. It would be great if you could clear the air over any industry involvement and not just Minelab. That is all I have asked for- I think in all the recent posts.

The issue is that people want to be 'anonymous'. That is fine but it prevents any check of conflict of interest. That is why industry interests are important to be declared. You could instead reveal your real name but I assume that you do not wish to. Note too that if you work for a small company that would identify you, you do not need to name the company.

With respect to WM6, if and when he signs up to the Code of Conduct, I will also ask him to also clear the air given his logo as with anyone that indicates a commercial interest.

Chudster

[Qiaozhi]

Doug and Urbanfox,

Please have this discussion elsewhere. It has diverted from being on topic.

For instance, there is a QED thread and there are other forums.

Thanks

Chudster

It would be preferable if they had their "discussion" on another forum, rather than here on Geotech.
Geotech is focussed on the subject of treasure hunting technology, not slagging each other off and whining about the activities of a certain metal detector manufacturer.

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

Thanks.

Could you just clear up that you are a bona fide hobbyist. That is not a dealer, detector modder and that you do not make your living in the detector industry. No problem if you are not, it should just be declared.

Sorry to press the point but your avatar does indicate an industry affiliation and for whatever reasons others still harbour suspicions and its best for the air to be cleared.

Much appreciated.

Chudster

Chudster, as I said before I am not associated with Minelab in any way at all. I changed my avatar to Whites. Does that now mean I am hooked up with Whites? I think not. Please stop with the guessing game. WM6 has a coil pictured in his avatar that is made by a company. Ask him his hookup with a company!

[mickstv]

Hi Chudster, sorry to say but good luck trying to get the truth out of anyone, about any affiliation with detector companies. People will Lie.

[chudster]

I have had just about every brand of detector made from the early BFO's of the 60's. Whites, Garrett, Fisher, Bountyhunter, Minelab, etc. For gold hunting I use a 2200 Minelab. I have a old Garrett Ground Hog still I dig out now and then for coin shooting old areas.

Thanks.

Could you just clear up that you are a bona fide hobbyist. That is not a dealer, detector modder and that you do not make your living in the detector industry. No problem if you are not, it should just be declared.

Sorry to press the point but your avatar does indicate an industry affiliation and for whatever reasons others still harbour suspicions and its best for the air to be cleared.

Much appreciated.

Chudster

[chudster]

Sorry Doug. You are a liar. Posts were removed from general visibility. Using your criteria, any post removed from a forum is not deleted as it is still retained in the forum database. It is evident that the description of you as being a "Boil on the Butt of Humanity" does not go near far enough as it does not describe your lack of ethics.

Doug and Urbanfox,

Please have this discussion elsewhere. It has diverted from being on topic.

For instance, there is a QED thread and there are other forums.

Thanks

Chudster

[chudster]

And here is another point. Are you committing patent infringement or incitement or encouragement to commit patent infringement by providing/publishing/discussing the means eg to uploading data to a MC by finding methods that get around a patent ( non infringing methods) due to the patents omissions or errors?
dougAEGPF

These are better answered by a patent attorney which I am not.

However:

1) Doing your best not to infringe is respecting IP.

2) There is no offence that I am aware of for working around a patent.

3) In terms of errors and omissions in a patent that could only be assessed on a case by case basis but a patent stands as to the claims allowed by the examiner until it is challenged in some way. Errors and omissions probably come under the defence that there is a defect or there was fraud.

It is notable that there are about 20 defenses in the US to patent infringement and probably a similar number in other jurisdictions.

http://freddouglas.wordpress.com/201...ingement-suit/

Consult your lawyer to work through the appropriate list for your jurisdiction but its pretty simple if you stick to experimental use or similar exemptions.

Chudster

[UrbanFox]

No posts have been deleted! end of story! No lies!!!! Some threads and boards are only accessible to designated members who I trust and respect. You fail on both criteria! So sad! You also of course engaged in willful deceptive and misleading conduct on the forum which has led to your permanent ban.
dougAEGPF

Sorry Doug. You are a liar. Posts were removed from general visibility. Using your criteria, any post removed from a forum is not deleted as it is still retained in the forum database. It is evident that the description of you as being a "Boil on the Butt of Humanity" does not go near far enough as it does not describe your lack of ethics.

[dougAEGPF]

While you can state you haven't deleted posts, what is factual is that posts and complete threads have previously disappeared from your forum. Your explanation when pushed and you had no way out??? You stated these posts/threads have been moved to an area of the forum not accessible to general members and guests. Your play on words demonstrates that you will tell what to all intents and purposes are unmitigated lies and have no compunction about doing so. Your behaviour with respect to this issue alone puts your ethics and honesty in complete and utter doubt as far as I am concerned. So Doug, why would I or anyone believe what you say??

No posts have been deleted! end of story! No lies!!!! Some threads and boards are only accessible to designated members who I trust and respect. You fail on both criteria! So sad! You also of course engaged in willful deceptive and misleading conduct on the forum which has led to your permanent ban.
dougAEGPF

[UrbanFox]

No posts including yours have been deleted from my forum unlike finders forum where you have had admin delete many of yours including whole threads!!!!!!!! Another example of you getting your facts wrong again, So sad! No facts no evidence!
dougAEGPF

While you can state you haven't deleted posts, what is factual is that posts and complete threads have previously disappeared from your forum. Your explanation when pushed and you had no way out??? You stated these posts/threads have been moved to an area of the forum not accessible to general members and guests. Your play on words demonstrates that you will tell what to all intents and purposes are unmitigated lies and have no compunction about doing so. Your behaviour with respect to this issue alone puts your ethics and honesty in complete and utter doubt as far as I am concerned. So Doug, why would I or anyone believe what you say??

[dougAEGPF]

Ah hell Doug, I expect you have deleted the posts now anyway. I have been told you went on a bit of a post deleting binge. Is that true??
.

No posts including yours have been deleted from my forum unlike finders forum where you have had admin delete many of yours including whole threads!!!!!!!! Another example of you getting your facts wrong again, So sad! No facts no evidence!
dougAEGPF
Ps ML had me in their sights once ! Ask them the difference between a printed circuit board and an IC !Ask them where in the circuits layout act 1989 their is any reference or definition of a printed circuit board.Ask them why i did not sign any of the documents they sent me as part of their lawsuite!!!!!! I just threw the documents in the bin!!!!!

[dougAEGPF]

I am not a lawyer, but I'd need to look at the legal case where patent infringement was found on a manufacturer when the user modified it to infringe. I suppose its possible if the instructions and encouragement came from the manufacturer it might be found under inducement or incitement to infringe. In that case the judgement might be to remove the instructions from the product saying how to infringe and damages for the units that were sold with the infringing instructions.

Even for a manufacturer it is common practice in products to produce one design and turn off features for different markets for patent or other legal or marketing reasons through firmware. Communications products do this because of the telecommunications laws. That is an economic and compliance decision.

Our design is to be open and international. Its not possible to collaborate, experiment and improve without all options being possible. But we respect IP and our situation is not that one and so I would imagine there would only be instructions telling people how to not infringe. I can't imagine a judge ordering to remove instructions not to infringe or ordering our code and designs to become closed and not available in that jurisdiction. Especially when there is the right to experiment with people's patents in most, if not all, jurisdictions.

Chudster

And here is another point. Are you committing patent infringement or incitement or encouragement to commit patent infringement by providing/publishing/discussing the means eg to uploading data to a MC by finding methods that get around a patent ( non infringing methods) due to the patents omissions or errors?
dougAEGPF

[UrbanFox]

If you had not been banned twice from my forum then you could carry out this task yourself!

Ah hell Doug, I expect you have deleted the posts now anyway. I have been told you went on a bit of a post deleting binge. Is that true??

We are still waiting for you to tell the world what patents you allege that the QED infringes! Obviously you are unable too and it seems that you are not alone!
dougAEGPF

Doug, I don't want to preempt the courts, so perhaps you should just wait until December 3rd like everyone else. When the day comes, just sit back, ask Aziz if he will share some of his popcorn and coke, or perhaps you should buy your own, and wait to see how good the fireworks are. They might be very spectacular, they might just fizz.

As I have said elsewhere, it's a real pity that you are not the one in Minelab's sights.

[dougAEGPF]

I am not a lawyer, but I'd need to look at the legal case where patent infringement was found on a manufacturer when the user modified it to infringe. I suppose its possible if the instructions and encouragement came from the manufacturer it might be found under inducement or incitement to infringe. In that case the judgement might be to remove the instructions from the product saying how to infringe and damages for the units that were sold with the infringing instructions.

Even for a manufacturer it is common practice in products to produce one design and turn off features for different markets for patent or other legal or marketing reasons through firmware. Communications products do this because of the telecommunications laws. That is an economic and compliance decision.

Our design is to be open and international. Its not possible to collaborate, experiment and improve without all options being possible. But we respect IP and our situation is not that one and so I would imagine there would only be instructions telling people how to not infringe. I can't imagine a judge ordering to remove instructions not to infringe or ordering our code and designs to become closed and not available in that jurisdiction. Especially when there is the right to experiment with people's patents in most, if not all, jurisdictions.

Chudster

Could putting out a detector with a MC that can be reprogrammed be perceived as instructions and encouragement or incitement to infringe? eg What would happen for example if the HH3 MC PI was to go commercial? Someone skilled in the art could upload the MC SC for a GB system from someone else's patented IP! Then is the user and/or the designer/provider or forum admin etc of the HH3 Mc Pi guilty of providing the means or instructions and encouragement to infringe?
doug AEGPF