Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[chudster]

I am not a Anti ML supporter, never was and never will, nor am i agreeing in there day to day working ethics. That aside consider this.....The OTHERS will come knocking on your door for the right reasons and not the wrong ones in future for your efforts in published material in a respectable matter.

If the IP is taken by others here and developed further without prior compensation where need to be, then consider that it is there downfall. People are aware and can assume the inevitable outcome will happen and necessary parties will be ridiculed in time. If you feel as though you have something to offer significant and choose to not reveal here, by all means contact the relevant established Companies that may take you on board and no need to use this medium to vent your main interest if its otherwise not related in the hobby aspect.
Sid

That is the problem. Allegedly, ML 'overpatents'. That is it is said that it applies for a patent even though it has already been invented and used by someone else and maybe even published. You can get away with it if the patent is never challenged or there is not a good record that it was disclosed in public.

I did say allegedly. If anyone knows this has happened for sure then that is information that would be good for people ML has pursued over patents to know and fine to post openly for discussion. I think I saw in one thread discussion of whether one ML patent was being questioned as invalid.

Leaving aside whether ML does or doesn't do that- someone else could. This is the problem with secrecy. You can keep it secret and someone 'skilled in the art' can reverse engineer your secret and then patent it. Your trade secret becomes their patent! It might be possible to invalidate it if you prove they 'copied' but that also may not happen unless they take the person they copied to court as that person is still probably pursuing secrecy and the others (being sued) may not be aware it was invented by someone else unless they reverse engineer.

And even as Minelab agreed, there was no way they could stop the SD2000 schematic being published on Geotech. After all Zed actually owned the copyright to that circuit diagram! But they could warn about the patents that might be embodied. So even Minelab tells us that only patents count and its true. Unlike with software, there is an inherent legal right to copy hardware. Under law, really only patents matter for hardware.

Now to the part in bold:
If true it is not their downfall. It appears to be their strength.

Now to the large font:
Not to excuse any over the top behaviour but the 'ridiculing' by some people of Minelab's patents might be caused by that.

This is a tough problem that you could pay some IP lawyers to solve- maybe. Their advice would be to patent .... Ka- ching here is the next invoice. You can see the path to secrecy has its problems. Even openly publishing may not stop a party patenting. Patent and Carl is right. You have to have $100 000s and nerves of steel. Maybe we have nerves of steel but when you compare our resources to a corporation protecting $98 million of revenue it is no contest- unless there is a billionaire philanthropist lurking in Geotech.

Should we forget it and keep things as they are or maybe start collecting stamps?

Overall, one solution is to work with an industry player to bring your design to market. There is no reason why that could not even be Minelab. Industry players are already are invested in the game and know how to play.

I think we are a smart and innovative enough bunch to figure out how to organize and work together to solve this problem.

Chudster

[ivconic]

Strange, but I had an impression that the financial side of the charter was the stumbling stone in the whole commercial design story and patenting (without patenting). My view from the beginning was that most of the exchange will be on the level of schematic and source code exchange, and those are covered by Copyright, e.g. by their coming to existence, or if the contributors decide so, by Creative Commons with some rights reserved. This can be done using some non-repudiation and validation services because it is quite easy to write under alias (e.g. forum nick etc.) and still have full control over the art usage.

I myself have no financial expectations with any of my hobby projects. If I sell something now and then, it is just because barter is not always an option, and I like my expenses covered. I will not refuse a financial reward though.

Commercial projects are a completely different ball game.

Yeah, that's the bump i stumped on.
At the beginning i also though: "What the hell, that's only a nice hobby. I don't expect money. All i expect is pleasure of making things alive"
But appetite for learning grows more with each design i deal with. Simple designs don't need much money. But once, eventually, you get fed up with simple designs and want to make a step more. So completely unknowingly you step in to quiet different world, world of expensive "hobby" which will demand constant money investings to make further progress.
More advance "hobby" demands more advanced tools (instruments etc..), more advanced tools demands more money!
At the end of a day you are faced with lack of decent money to invest if you want to continue the "game".
One thing leads to another and all of the sudden you wake up one day as "producer&seller&manager" thinking mostly on money and not on previous enthusiasm you had.
Right now i am all up to gaining money to buy digital 2 channel scope! Detectors? What was that?

[Davor]

Strange, but I had an impression that the financial side of the charter was the stumbling stone in the whole commercial design story and patenting (without patenting). My view from the beginning was that most of the exchange will be on the level of schematic and source code exchange, and those are covered by Copyright, e.g. by their coming to existence, or if the contributors decide so, by Creative Commons with some rights reserved. This can be done using some non-repudiation and validation services because it is quite easy to write under alias (e.g. forum nick etc.) and still have full control over the art usage.

I myself have no financial expectations with any of my hobby projects. If I sell something now and then, it is just because barter is not always an option, and I like my expenses covered. I will not refuse a financial reward though.

Commercial projects are a completely different ball game.

[sido]

Yes, that would do. Apart from electronics everything else can be off-the-shelf, including the casings, stems, batteries... coils...

In case everything is done under "some rights reserved" copyright, it will raise considerably less eyebrows, and will not strip the charter members of royalties if at some point the rig goes commercial.

Davor, your right on the mark there. If anything comes good with whats represented here as in breakthrough in developmental projects, i am certain the relevant contributors will be compensated for their efforts and not go in vain. Better to let it out in this open forum for the majority to see the progress and what is a significant stage of development that has been achieved up to date. If you have represented a given breakthrough on a forum here in a ordinary and fair matter you will be looked upon and taken aboard......hopefully and maybe a positive interest is shown from the remaining major parties involved......obviously apart from a Company that seams otherwise in the Metal detecting industry of late.

I am not a Anti ML supporter, never was and never will, nor am i agreeing in there day to day working ethics. That aside consider this.....The OTHERS will come knocking on your door for the right reasons and not the wrong ones in future for your efforts in published material in a respectable matter.

If the IP is taken by others here and developed further without prior compensation where need to be, then consider that it is there downfall. People are aware and can assume the inevitable outcome will happen and necessary parties will be ridiculed in time. If you feel as though you have something to offer significant and choose to not reveal here, by all means contact the relevant established Companies that may take you on board and no need to use this medium to vent your main interest if its otherwise not related in the hobby aspect.

As a suggestion....How about re-naming a open thread as World Detectors Inc....which refers to a virtual and neutral obligation that the collective efforts from all who contribute in some way (little or a lot) to the further development of new proven concepts in Metal detecting are acknowledged......All relevant people will be rewarded for there efforts where need to be in the future.

This will be a must for any rewards and efforts to the concerned parties who raise the issue of un-fairness. There is no other way as Carl has mentioned before and proven failures as such. Further development then can be achieved this way, by having a standard to compare with........without having nothing to compare with ATM??.

In conjunction to this, if a Company shows some interest as Tinkerer mentioned as "what is the standard or whats required to achieve this" Well this can be discussed here....and if Carl has an input with authority to do so in this matter then he shall divulge into the concerns for all to understand the limitations, if any to this matter.......... then eventually a positive and a standard agreement can be understood by all which will eventually result that some of the posters IP in future SHOULD and WILL be compensated as agreed by relevant parties involved at that time. What do you all think?

I am not after any financial gain as a builder/tester, just purely interested in the new innovations that can be achieved by ordinary talented/gifted people here and that is all.

Keep your ideas coming and something good will come out of it, If not then its each individual's prerogative where they want to take this. Take it away, you loose the fun, real reason or intention out of it. If you feel something otherwise, then take it somewhere where you are rewarded for it, then we all will support and agree with your chosen path without exception.

Sid

[chudster]

....will not strip the charter members of royalties......

I think I know what you mean Davor but I just wanted to clarify something and seek comment if there is a differing view.

It has not been planned that there would be any business relationship between "charter members" pooling royalties from designs etc and sharing profits. That starts to head towards a corporation with shareholders. What is presently planned is that the principles and behaviours of the charter should underpin collaboration including the right for people to have the "possibility of profits". That could be from royalties or by going into business together in some fashion using designs. The charter is there to support that but not to provide a business mechanism or even tell you how to do it. I could foresee a not for profit corporation being involved down the track but that is quite a step too.

If there is a groundswell to the opposite then I would like to know but I don't believe its what the great majority of people want.

Chudster

[ivconic]

I agree completely. The best thing a small timer can do is take some measures to protect his software. That bought me a couple years worth of time in the mid 1990's on a control system that I built and wrote the software for. Since all of the hardware and the EPROM with the software on it are easy to duplicate, I chose to fix it so that each individual controller board had to be initialized by me. Every time the program initialized, it performed some math functions based on the numbers in four memory locations. If the result did not match, the program froze. Simple but effective.

I am sure that system could have been cracked but using an obscure language helped as well as the fact that I did not call attention to it by stepping on the cat's tail so to speak.

Anyway, it worked well enough so I got established and then sold the business.

Jerry

Yes, that reminds me on serial&parallel "dongle-keys" i made back in 2001.
A friend is programmer, writing software in VB and VC and one day he told me he would like to protect it. So we made dongles with a piece of software included. So once software installed on PC; first it checks if there is dongle connected on serial or parallel port. Without dongle; software runs in demo mode. With dongle present; software runs fully functional.
Small 12C508 was hidden and glued in dongle with a piece of code.
Now days such technique is overcame.
Luckily now days there are powerful yet cheap processors which may do better job.

[Davor]

How about the metal detector kit solution? It doesn't make much work to the designer. And we all can smell solder fume.

Yes, that would do. Apart from electronics everything else can be off-the-shelf, including the casings, stems, batteries... coils...

In case everything is done under "some rights reserved" copyright, it will raise considerably less eyebrows, and will not strip the charter members of royalties if at some point the rig goes commercial.

[sido]

Even that will be tough!
If you try to contact some of those manufacturers in China; first thing they will ask you is: "What is the quantity we are talking about?"
So if you name any number bellow 1000, like 50 ... 100 : most probably they will not talk with you again.

Ivconic you might have a chance to strike any deal ATM...... even as a small designer of any product seeing the way the world's Economy has become in recent times. Agree with you when competition is fierce in good times, Manufacturer's do become selective in what large manufacturing they choose to undertake.

Sid

[sido]

Sorry if I came across wrong... no one has crossed a line. Well, except Aziz. (Aziz, get a grip man, or we'll have to call the Men in White Coats.)

A lot of people have dreams of coming up with a killer metal detector and starting their own production. I'm arguing that the "start your own production" is a Big Mistake. Dave has sunk $1000's into it and 3 years later has nothing to show. He had a clear path to another way. Eric, on the other hand, struck a deal with White's and went on to work on other projects while cashing checks. I've been on both sides now, and that's the way to do it!

While we may all agree that one particular company is on a mission to own the (metal detecting) world, other companies will treat you fairly. I work for White's, we treat people well. I'm sure First Texas would, too. Probably Garrett & Tesoro. There are options. Trying to start up even a limited production will burn all your money, burn all your time, and suck all the fun out of the deal.

- Carl

Hi Carl no worries. A topic of this nature arises from time to time and i gather its part of a forums inner cycle which goes through every so often and people do have the right to question its effectiveness and worthiness as such.

Good to here that Whites do not have the negative rational and culture way of thinking like ML seems to be of late. Also good to know that Eric is still being compensated for his IP in use today from what seams a reasonable and fair Company, such as the one you have interest in.

Sid

[Aziz]

Hi guys,

(first: I thought, I was banned. Obviously not.)

How about the metal detector kit solution? It doesn't make much work to the designer. And we all can smell solder fume.
*LOL*
Aziz

[Jerry]

Yes, keep quiet and try to protect it as best as you could.
Processors are good for many reasons, but for me; main advantage is protection.
You may read here on forums many "advantages" of implementing processor in some md design.
Faster, cheaper, lower consumption, adc, dac.... "mac", "shatz", "klatz" ... you name it!
But if you ask me; all those "advantages" are advantages mostly on paper (simulator),
but on real field, under real searching conditions those do perform maybe just 5% better than fully analogue oldie.
Main advantage of processor implementing in md design is PROTECTION! Period.
So if you want to protect your intellectual work, new idea, whatever; solution is simple: try to implement processor in it and integrate it on as much as higher level you can in your design.
Other words; try to design circuitry which will depend most on processor and its functions.
Implement two or three processor instead only one! Make it complicated! Make it tough!
And voila; you will have pretty well protected own intellectual work.
No need for patenting, no need for such big fuzz, nothing.
Than you can freely make offers and proposals without fears that anybody will cheat and steal from you, sue you or something else.
Than you can make conditions and negotiate.
Also you can start smaller production and freely sell them by your own.
Sweet and "protected" money.
Cheers!

I agree completely. The best thing a small timer can do is take some measures to protect his software. That bought me a couple years worth of time in the mid 1990's on a control system that I built and wrote the software for. Since all of the hardware and the EPROM with the software on it are easy to duplicate, I chose to fix it so that each individual controller board had to be initialized by me. Every time the program initialized, it performed some math functions based on the numbers in four memory locations. If the result did not match, the program froze. Simple but effective.

I am sure that system could have been cracked but using an obscure language helped as well as the fact that I did not call attention to it by stepping on the cat's tail so to speak.

Anyway, it worked well enough so I got established and then sold the business.

Jerry

[UrbanFox]

Hey Carl why did you not show the QED you had to your masters at Whites looks like a double cross to some of us?

I've never had a QED.

So kris, where are you getting you info from? Did King Wally, aka Doug, put you up to coming over here to call Carl's ethics into question or did you make the decision to do it yourself? Either way, sleazebags, both of you!

Note people, kris is one of Duggie's little helpers these days as is Aziz.

[ivconic]

But Ivconic, if some did have a detector that was better than the rest they could build it one a month by hand. And after 12 or so units that proved to be the best they could easily find someone to mass produce them. That is if they had a patent on the design. Or sell the patent to a large company and be set for life if was good enough!

Or just keep their idea "QUIET" till it had proven itself to work as they say, then hire someone (patent lawyer)to look to see if their idea was novel. Usually someone else has already patented it. But I figure there are new areas waiting to be figured out. No one has found it yet on a homemade detector.

Yes, keep quiet and try to protect it as best as you could.
Processors are good for many reasons, but for me; main advantage is protection.
You may read here on forums many "advantages" of implementing processor in some md design.
Faster, cheaper, lower consumption, adc, dac.... "mac", "shatz", "klatz" ... you name it!
But if you ask me; all those "advantages" are advantages mostly on paper (simulator),
but on real field, under real searching conditions those do perform maybe just 5% better than fully analogue oldie.
Main advantage of processor implementing in md design is PROTECTION! Period.
So if you want to protect your intellectual work, new idea, whatever; solution is simple: try to implement processor in it and integrate it on as much as higher level you can in your design.
Other words; try to design circuitry which will depend most on processor and its functions.
Implement two or three processor instead only one! Make it complicated! Make it tough!
And voila; you will have pretty well protected own intellectual work.
No need for patenting, no need for such big fuzz, nothing.
Than you can freely make offers and proposals without fears that anybody will cheat and steal from you, sue you or something else.
Than you can make conditions and negotiate.
Also you can start smaller production and freely sell them by your own.
Sweet and "protected" money.
Cheers!

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

good one

Sorry to make you giggle, but that is the way Capitalism works! Not Socialism.

[Davor]

good one