How Do I Magnetize Black Sand?????

[Melbeta]

Okay, here you go, photos and text material

Okay, here you go, text material and photos, and all I am copying is the part relative to the electromagnetic material. If you want any other information, you will have to buy the book, it is well worth the price for it, for it contains very good information, from a person who succeeded in separating and recovering sparse very fine gold particles from sand. He was as good as you can get in gold recovery information....

[Melbeta]

I will copy that section of the book and post it....

You mention one "transformer" operating on AC and then a second transformer operating on DC.
This raises some questions in my mind.

If you apply DC to a transformer there will be no voltage transformation, so perhaps the second "transformer" is simply being used to generate a steady magnetic field?

The first transformer could do double duty. Job one being an electromagnet, with alternating field. Second job: step-down voltage transformation. You probably would not want to drive a transformer (transformer #2) with 120V DC. It would fry.

But you take the same transformer and drive it with something like 12VDC and you might have a manageable power consumption and heat generation, depending on the input winding's DC resistance.

There would need to be a rectifier between the two transformers to eliminate one polarity of output before driving the DC magnet.

Perhaps the builder needed some large iron with which to build electromagnets, had access to large transformers... and figured, "Why not use that?"

Technos mentioned transformers being magnetically shielded, but that is purely optional for an "E-I" construction transformer, and any shield could be removed.

¿es posible?

I will copy that section of the book, including photos of the equipment, and the text, right after the material was ready for magnetizing, and you can then comment directly to the book text and photos. Wait until I get some time to attach it....

[Melbeta]

I have heard of specific gravity separation...

I question exactly what the "transformers" were exactly. Most transformers have a high degree of shielding which prevents a strong magnetic field outside of them. Of course, maybe that's why they were using large 240 AC units. Also. this was a 1973 design, and there are a couple of other technologies that might work better. As an example, it should be able to run off standard 120 AC. The 240 AC transformers were probably used because of expediency as they did not want to bother with winding what would be a large coil. Perhaps you could post a picture from the book if it shows them?

I have thought that it would be interesting to try and build a machine that would sort according to specific gravity. I do not know if it could be done. Perhaps by using centrifugal forces.

Funny you mentioned that, when I was refining, I read an article where some were experimenting with centrifical action, of molten metals, and thus separating metals by weight by specific gravity. I also read where some were dissolving metals with gas, do not remember its actual name, but it was the old gas they used to use to put people to sleep for surgery, that left them kind of sick when they were awakened. But I never tried that stuff....

Just recalled the name of the gas, they used to dissolve gold in a sealed container, it was Ether. You had to be careful, if you breathed it, you would fall unconscious very fast. That is why I did not try it...They used it to separate gold from platinum and platinum group metals...

I might add, the author, assayer, refiner, C. W. Ammen, was a friend of mine, and a mentor to me, he would answer all my questions, and help me with information. He published various books himself, and you can do a search for them, if you are interested, he is since deceased. At the time he helped me, he was around 80 years old. Very smart person relative to precious metals.

[Krzysztof]

Hi Melbeta.
Little attention.
1. AC transformer type EI after Removing the jumper "I" is useless. Then has an open magnetic circuit, ie considerable resistance magnetic and large magnetic gap, the efficiency of a few percent.
2. See metal removal technique (magnetic) impurities in waste incinerators. This is a drum with the DC electromagnet tape transport.
3. A mini version of the electromagnet is DC ferite cup, open, the coil turns 10,000. Not a thin wire, a large resistance reduces the power, or attraction. The required power minimum 100 - 200 W.
4. Micro version - manual. The latest technology - neodymium permanent magnet type. A small magnet weighs 100g, has the power to attract 40kg. Just place it in a plastic guard removed, because otherwise no longer the black sand does not get away. Such strong.
Best regards Chris.

[porkluvr]

Actually the DC transformer that he was talking about could have been a strong electromagnet - which is what you get when you apply DC to a coil...

Actually because of the saturation and shape of the core of an iron transformer the magnetic field does not go far beyond the device - that's what makes them efficient...

I've got to admit that you're right about the magnetic field not going far.

Maybe both devices were simply iron core coils (electromagnets).

[technos]

Actually the DC transformer that he was talking about could have been a strong electromagnet - which is what you get when you apply DC to a coil. That's why I asked for a picture.

Technos mentioned transformers being magnetically shielded, but that is purely optional for an "E-I" construction transformer, and any shield could be removed.
¿es posible?

Actually because of the saturation and shape of the core of an iron transformer the magnetic field does not go far beyond the device - that's what makes them efficient. I was talking something like the transformer below (which has no shielding beyond the core).

[porkluvr]

You mention one "transformer" operating on AC and then a second transformer operating on DC.
This raises some questions in my mind.

If you apply DC to a transformer there will be no voltage transformation, so perhaps the second "transformer" is simply being used to generate a steady magnetic field?

The first transformer could do double duty. Job one being an electromagnet, with alternating field. Second job: step-down voltage transformation. You probably would not want to drive a transformer (transformer #2) with 120V DC. It would fry.

But you take the same transformer and drive it with something like 12VDC and you might have a manageable power consumption and heat generation, depending on the input winding's DC resistance.

There would need to be a rectifier between the two transformers to eliminate one polarity of output before driving the DC magnet.

Perhaps the builder needed some large iron with which to build electromagnets, had access to large transformers... and figured, "Why not use that?"

Technos mentioned transformers being magnetically shielded, but that is purely optional for an "E-I" construction transformer, and any shield could be removed.

¿es posible?

[technos]

So what I seek is the technical information, for building a pulsating high voltage AC transformer, actually two of them were found to be necessary, to magnetize the remaining black sands.

I question exactly what the "transformers" were exactly. Most transformers have a high degree of shielding which prevents a strong magnetic field outside of them. Of course, maybe that's why they were using large 240 AC units. Also. this was a 1973 design, and there are a couple of other technologies that might work better. As an example, it should be able to run off standard 120 AC. The 240 AC transformers were probably used because of expediency as they did not want to bother with winding what would be a large coil. Perhaps you could post a picture from the book if it shows them?

I have thought that it would be interesting to try and build a machine that would sort according to specific gravity. I do not know if it could be done. Perhaps by using centrifugal forces.

[Melbeta]

And just how do you figure to do that????

Best to do electrolysis of gold (silver) you will get 99.5% purity. Looking on the Internet as they do electrolysis of gold.

Another suggestion. Okay, I will answer the suggestion...

Okay, all I wanted was the information I wanted. I used to run a electrolytic gold and silver refining company, back in the 1980's, so I am very knowledgable and informed on gold refining. Both on acid refining, assay refining, and electrolytic refining. I used to refine and kick out my own company stamped bars, with the Pikes Peak Mint on my bars.

Your suggestion, while it was meant to help me, will NOT work!!! I will explain why...

First of all, when you do electrolytic refining, you start out with a solid bar of gold, not fines. You want the gold bar, to be a solid bar, to use for the Anode. Fine particles do not work that easily for an anode, they would work better for acid refining, as the acid can dissolve and reduce smalper particles. For electrolytic refining, you do not want any irons in it, to contaminate the refining, and you will have difficulty reaching the higher purity you desire.

And likewise, I do not want the gold fines in there, with the black sands, as I do not want to melt them all together, WHICH IS WHY I AM ASKING FOR MAGNETIC TRANSFORMER TECHNICAL INFORMATION.

If the magnetic black sands, and the non-magnetic black sands, would not harm the gold and silver particulates of sylvanite and calaverite, I would just put a torch to the concentrates, melt them with borax, and be done with it. But that is dumb! Dumb is not what I want to do. What I want to do, is do it right and perfect, which is why I am asking for technical information on how to build an magnetizer unit...

Now when you use electrolytic refining of gold, you need a special cell, called an moebus cell, which is used for gold electrolytic refining. You do not need one for silver electrolytic refining, as control of evaporation is not an issue. The big boys, on gold refining, shoot for 9999 purity, but that is so difficult, I went for 999 purity. On silver, also went for 999 purity. 99.5% is only 99 purity. 999.5% is 999 puritity. They ignor the tenths. That is where the contamination ends up...

This suggestion will not work for my purposes!!! One would be better to attempt acid refining if you are going to leave it as gold and silver concentrate fines, and leave the non-magnetic black sands in, it would be easier to separate it using acid refining than with electrolytic refining...

Here is my logo from my former gold and silver refining business, so that you understand I know what I am speaking of. I am not a newbie to gold prospecting, detecting, separation, or refining. I also did assaying in my business.

[maikl]

Best to do electrolysis of gold (silver) you will get 99.5% purity. Looking on the Internet as they do electrolysis of gold.

[Melbeta]

Where you can get the book....

Okay, the book today is higher priced, here is the lowest price I found, $7.95, with only $2.00 shipping cost. You will find that Al McGowan, was a gold prospector, who decided to see what kind of gold he could get from a sand operation. And he got a lot of gold from the sand. And sold the sand also...

http://www.akmining.com/cart/bookgoldmining.htm

You will notice, that AKmining regards the book highly, and is selling it!

And here is a photo of the book, and you can see, in the gold scale, the amount of gold fines he recovered, VERY fine gold indeed.

[Melbeta]

First, but not least..............

Ahhh! So then you pan/sluice the regular sand for the gold.

Okay, one uses a concentrater to separate the sand from the concentrates from the sluice box. Then you end up with black sands and sylvanite and calaverite material. It is all fine material. The black sands are more coarse in nature.

I can dry the concentrates, and use a strong magnetic in a paper cup, and drag it through the concentrates, and remove the black sands that are magnetic.

So after that, all I have left, is the sylvanite and and calaverite fines, plus the black sands that are not magnetic!

So what I seek is the technical information, for building a pulsating high voltage AC transformer, actually two of them were found to be necessary, to magnetize the remaining black sands. Then they were removed by a suspended magnetic. Then the remaining concentrates travelled under the last transformer, it was an AC transformer, and I do not know its specifications either, it finished up the magnetizing or re-magnetizing of the partially magnetized material, and then travelled under another strong magnet, and what came out then was just the gold concentrates.

It is all in the book, "The Extraction of Free Gold" by Al McGowan, written by H. Glenn Carson, witnessed by H. Glenn Carson, and sold by Carson Enterprises at his mail order location, at Drawer 71, Deming, NM 88031. I do not know what he sells the book for now, but when I bought it, it was only $2.00. Printed in 1973. It has a world of information on separation of sand and concentrates, and separation of gold fines and black sands, even has many many photos of the operation, but just does not have the entire specifications of what the equipment consisted of...

[Melbeta]

Concentrators get the concentrations....

Concentrators were used by the sand business to gather the concentrations, I am familiar with them, but he found too, as I found. that the fines are too fine, and you need a magnetic separation unit to remove the final black sands.

Then what you have is a container full of gold material. I believe H. Glenn Carson is still selling that book, and it is not that expensive, and it contains a world of knowledge pertaining to the recovery of gold from sand concentrations, and the recovery of gold from black sands. It just briefly mentions and pictures the magnetic separation unit, not sufficiently so that I can build the three magnetizer transformers. You know, amps, watts, windings and so on. That is what I seek, the technical information, then I will have a transformer person build the three transformers, and then figure out how to power it all up. I do not really even need the moving rubber belt assembly, that was to spread it out, to apply the magnetic waves to a mass of concentrates, my volume of concentrates will not be as much as his, and I can just spread it out, and move it through the magnetic equipment in another way.

[Melbeta]

Yes I know that is true in some places.....

Some of your black sands are not Magnetic.

There for you are not able to extract them that way.

They are made up of Garnet, and other dark Crystal dust and sands.

There specific gravity is quite high and that is why they stick in the pan.

http://prospecting.atspace.com/blacksand.html

Just pan it out!

Up in the Breckenridge gold placer areas, that is definitely true, but they are bits and pieces of semi-precious gemstones, not actually black sands.
It conists of bits of garnets, ameythists, quartz, smoky quartz, and some topaz mixed in the black sands.

Where I find a bunch of gold placer material, mainly consisting of gold and silver, it is primarily black sands, and there is too much to pan out and separate. Right now, the only way is to clean it with soap, then mercury method, and the Boulder magnetic method would greatly speed up and enhance the recovery method, which is why I seek it... I have tried everything, and what I seek is the solution, contrary to suggestions.

[technos]

That little machine is not intended to save the gold.

Just Eliminate the Magnetic Black sands.

Ahhh! So then you pan/sluice the regular sand for the gold.