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Basics: Recovery Speed, Reactivity

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  • ivconic
    replied
    Originally posted by Tepco View Post
    Interesting issues for discuss, I want to make few comments about all this, from beginning of this post.

    Operating frequency is absolutely non-related with recovery speed directly (but can affect it to some degree, depending on detector design, indirectly, some lower freq. machines are actually slower, but not all).Neither switch type used in demodulators can affect it directly in any way, but indirectly can.

    Most important parameter defining recovery speed is design of post-detector filter stages. Just simple differentiator type circuit in some designs (diode limited and with reduced dynamic range), more complex bandpass filtering in others, usually DSP in anything recently built. Time domain response of this stage is crucial, but not only factor. As a rule, all faster detectors are built using some more sofisticated filter stages, all simple diferentiator types are slower.

    Another thing to consider is demodulator type (not components used in it), single ended, like TGSL, or balanced. First type will “leak” DC\LF component in next stage, never mind, there is no DC or LF at this point. Well almost. LF component coming from GND is sufficiently attenuated in RX preamp and AC coupling after it, but higher freq. components generated during sweep over multiple targets may not always be. Especially if following filter is simple derivative stage, with relatively larger bandwidth and not so sharp roll off, this LF will fall into its passband. Balanced detector will perform better in general, or more aggressive band or high pass filtering at RX input can help with single ended design

    (yes, 4053 is usually in balanced detector design, SMW or whatever version of it…)

    Change filters (use some existing design), change demod, wach BW and gain distribution, you can get nice speed. Changing just time constants of existing filter is not recomanded, filter performance is limited and will affect motion response time too.
    That's nice and educational post Tepco!
    Many thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • Tepco
    replied
    Originally posted by ivconic View Post
    I am asking these questions because i would like to clear up those facts on recovery speed.
    For me it is the one of most important features at metal detector.
    Ok, that's mostly because of the nature of searching i do affect and of course because of the character of my local soils here.
    Usually when i pick a model to buy; first i want to be sure about it's recovery speed capabilities.
    That's why Deus was my most logical choice (also because of many other nice features too).
    Later Cscope CS6MX appeared and i am very satisfied with what i saw on those few youtube clips with it.
    TGSL is nice home project. But i always wanted to improve recovery speed at it.
    Maybe that's why i later made IGSL??? (couldn't solve recovery speed at TGSL so than decided to overcome problem with different approach! )
    Classic III is also splendid home project! Yet it's recovery speed sucks!
    etc..etc...
    That's why i started this thread to hear others opinions and experiences.
    Thanks for inputs!
    Interesting issues for discuss, I want to make few comments about all this, from beginning of this post.

    Operating frequency is absolutely non-related with recovery speed directly (but can affect it to some degree, depending on detector design, indirectly, some lower freq. machines are actually slower, but not all).Neither switch type used in demodulators can affect it directly in any way, but indirectly can.

    Most important parameter defining recovery speed is design of post-detector filter stages. Just simple differentiator type circuit in some designs (diode limited and with reduced dynamic range), more complex bandpass filtering in others, usually DSP in anything recently built. Time domain response of this stage is crucial, but not only factor. As a rule, all faster detectors are built using some more sofisticated filter stages, all simple diferentiator types are slower.

    Another thing to consider is demodulator type (not components used in it), single ended, like TGSL, or balanced. First type will “leak” DC\LF component in next stage, never mind, there is no DC or LF at this point. Well almost. LF component coming from GND is sufficiently attenuated in RX preamp and AC coupling after it, but higher freq. components generated during sweep over multiple targets may not always be. Especially if following filter is simple derivative stage, with relatively larger bandwidth and not so sharp roll off, this LF will fall into its passband. Balanced detector will perform better in general, or more aggressive band or high pass filtering at RX input can help with single ended design

    (yes, 4053 is usually in balanced detector design, SMW or whatever version of it…)

    Change filters (use some existing design), change demod, wach BW and gain distribution, you can get nice speed. Changing just time constants of existing filter is not recomanded, filter performance is limited and will affect motion response time too.

    Leave a comment:


  • ivconic
    replied
    I am asking these questions because i would like to clear up those facts on recovery speed.
    For me it is the one of most important features at metal detector.
    Ok, that's mostly because of the nature of searching i do affect and of course because of the character of my local soils here.
    Usually when i pick a model to buy; first i want to be sure about it's recovery speed capabilities.
    That's why Deus was my most logical choice (also because of many other nice features too).
    Later Cscope CS6MX appeared and i am very satisfied with what i saw on those few youtube clips with it.
    TGSL is nice home project. But i always wanted to improve recovery speed at it.
    Maybe that's why i later made IGSL??? (couldn't solve recovery speed at TGSL so than decided to overcome problem with different approach! )
    Classic III is also splendid home project! Yet it's recovery speed sucks!
    etc..etc...
    That's why i started this thread to hear others opinions and experiences.
    Thanks for inputs!

    Leave a comment:


  • Davor
    replied
    ... or not. It is the time constant of the filters that do the delaying ... thing, and it can be set this way or another.
    Say IGSL - it has 20k in series with the bilateral switch that is 50% time open (thus behaving as a 40k resistor) and a 220n capacitor, giving a -3dB point at 18Hz. Using 4053 and two resistors of 20k each would require 440n to keep the same time constant, but the only real big deal is in the way double switch suppresses the carrier. Filter time constant is something you pick for your purpose, and it is as good as you calculate it.

    Everything else falls into tsyntsulator, blaybinger, doodah, and doohickey categories. Shortly - marketing.

    Leave a comment:


  • ivconic
    replied
    Originally posted by Carl-NC View Post
    Sorry Ivconic, it was work time for me. Now it's fun time!

    Recovery speed isthe time it takes a detector to recover from identifying any target and signal the presence of another target.

    Demod design and filter speed usually dictates this. The reason a 4053-based circuit seems to perform better is that it is usually a full-wave demod, whereas a 4066-based circuit is usually a half-wave demod.

    - Carl

    That's what i wanted to hear here!
    So it is design of synchronous demodulator and filter speed which defines recovery speed.

    Leave a comment:


  • eduardo1979
    replied
    Originally posted by holyuser View Post

    I mean this:
    True, but I have done differently in the end is the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • holyuser
    replied
    Originally posted by eduardo1979 View Post
    I think you mean this. I am right now.

    I mean this:

    Leave a comment:


  • eduardo1979
    replied
    Originally posted by holyuser View Post
    I mean, it must be tied to some constant level, in example to 1/2 VDD.
    I think you mean this. I am right now.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • holyuser
    replied
    Originally posted by eduardo1979 View Post
    PIN 3 is connected to C 4. I do not see flying in the air.
    I mean, it must be tied to some constant level, in example to 1/2 VDD.

    Leave a comment:


  • eduardo1979
    replied
    Originally posted by holyuser View Post
    The level on OA input (TL072, pin 3) is flying in the air.
    PIN 3 is connected to C 4. I do not see flying in the air.

    Leave a comment:


  • holyuser
    replied
    Originally posted by eduardo1979 View Post
    I have tried to modify the old Classic. Take a look to see what you think. I hope there are no errors. Greetings to all.
    The level on OA input (TL072, pin 3) is flying in the air.

    Leave a comment:


  • eduardo1979
    replied
    I have tried to modify the old Classic. Take a look to see what you think. I hope there are no errors. Greetings to all.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • eduardo1979
    replied
    In my Classic IDX, I will replace the 4066 by 4053 and see what happens. I have to make some changes to the operational preamplifier output RX. After the NE5534, I have to insert a dual operational amplifier to connect the two outputs to the inputs of 4053. I have really wanted to try that again. In the past I have done this experiment and really worked.

    Leave a comment:


  • Carl-NC
    replied
    Sorry Ivconic, it was work time for me. Now it's fun time!

    Recovery speed isthe time it takes a detector to recover from identifying any target and signal the presence of another target.

    Demod design and filter speed usually dictates this. The reason a 4053-based circuit seems to perform better is that it is usually a full-wave demod, whereas a 4066-based circuit is usually a half-wave demod.

    - Carl

    Leave a comment:


  • Davor
    replied
    You are giving too much credit for marketing science. Perhaps they initially wanted to call it doohickey, but recovery speed sounded somehow more scientific or snappier

    Just give them a break.

    Leave a comment:

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