Pulse Devil - The inside scoop

[pml]

J_Player,

Thanks for reply. You seem honest, but I'm puzzled why you took some of my quotes out of context. I never stated that Dave placed commercials or ads or that his Pulse Devil is a scam. Thanks for the quote, but please at least include all the text rather than picking pieces here and there for the purpose of trying to make appear differently. Couldn't that be looked upon as slander? I stated there are commercials that show VLF's displaying metal type. This gives newbies the impression that VLF's are flawless. Anyhow, you should ask a FCC employee ... and please make sure they tell you exactly where it is stated in the FCC rules. Despite my requests on this forum, nobodies replied as to where it is stated metal detectors are exempt from such rules. So far I have to go by FCC Part 15 document.

Paul

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

I can see this interpersonal stuff is just going to continue so I have started a new Pulse Devil thread with, well actual Pulse Devil related info. Those who want to continue to "debate" FCC rules or whatever have it via this thread, not the new one. Thank you.

[Unregistered]

JC1

doesn't say electric drills are exempt eithier.

[pml]

That's a good point JC1, but I'm not sure that's true. There must be a database of known categorized items. I doubt FCC employees just say, "ummm, that's probably classified as such and such." Once an item, such as drill motors, is classified then it would be to their advantage to simply add it to a database so they don't have reevaluate the item.

I just think it would be nice to see it in writing.

Paul

[Unregistered]

FCC employees?

What FCC employees? Do you think they have an abundance of employees sitting around waiting for someone to turn on their metal detector so they can go hassle them? They've turned over self governance to HAM radio because they didn't have enough employees to do it anymore. They took away the requirement for licensing CB radio because they didn't have enough employees to police it. Over and over the FCC is concerned about real violations, like jamming satellite TV, not metal detectors and drills. You really need to get out more.
FJ

[pml]

Thanks FJ Perhaps you could be more specific. You ask me, "What FCC employees?" Then you say FCC is only concerned about bigger problems. Also, are you saying the FCC does not have a database of items that they previously categorized?

It's great if FCC isn't concerned with such items as Metal Detectors. Companies usually don't take the word of forum posts. It's wise to see it in print.

Paul

[Unregistered]

Geeez

You just want to be arguementative. The whole point is that the FCC is low on resources. They are going to utilize their few people to catch the guy jamming cell phones before they worry about me messing up a TV 3 feet away with my metal detector. Is that clear enough?
FJ

[Unregistered]

JC1

Hi FJ,

I would worry about this too much.

Paul sounds like he got it all figured out.

Oh well, too bad.

If you call the FCC they will tell you you must comply or die.

Standard answer. and yet,,,,,,,,,,,

Not quite the way the world works.

Took me awhile to figure it all out.

May take some here awhile also.

JC

[Unregistered]

Actually I would appreciate that very much. I'm only staying here to rightfully defend myself against personal attacks.

In a year or two when I've done a little nugget shooting I'll post the design details. Thanks for the field data ... and the lesson in compassion.

God bless!
Paul

One advice if you dont mind. There is that saying, the more you stir a **** the more will smell.
So when the smarties are biting you just do not pay them any attention. Be on the top and let the dogs bark.

[J_Player]

Questions for Paul:

Hi Paul,
You asked why I took several of your quotes out of context? Did I? Here are your same quotes with the surrounding paragraphs you wrote included to show the context. I see no difference in the meaning whether your surrounding verbiage is preesent or not.

Pauls's quote #1 with surrounding paragraphs:

"I disagree on the discrimination part. I don't know of any VLF's much less PI detectors that can accurately tell you metal type. We see the ads on the outdoor channel during commercial breaks. They show their VLF displaying metal type, if it's a coin or this or that. Professional detectorist knows it's false advertisement.

I live near Los Angeles, CA. If you or anyone has a Pulse Devil that is making similar claims then I would very much like to try and disprove it.

I think people are getting tired of these sales scams and false ads.

Now a nail is ferrous. It has an RL time constant to within any frequency range a PI can detect, meaning that it has a certain amount of inductance and resistance. Now you can easily match that RL time constant with aluminum or copper or something similar. It's really simple. You only have two parameters to match, R & L. R changes a lot with height. L & R changes a lot with diameter".

It looks to me like you are still saying that you disagree that the Pulse Devil can discriminate, and you would like to try to disprove it. It looks like you are still using theoretical arguments to attempt to prove the Pulse Devil can't discriminate rather than actual tests done with the Pulse Devil. I used your single quote only to keep the size my post down to a reasonable size without adding a lot of extraneous verbage which anyone can read in your posts. Do you see any change in the context of your meanings when the surrounding paragraphs are included?

Pauls's quote #2 with surrounding paragraphs:

"The L component relative to the R component is matchable by changing to diameter of a metal disc. The R component relative to the L component is matchable by changing the thickness of the metal disc. The thickness also varies the L component to some degree and the diameter changes the R component, but together any RL variation is obtainable. The net detected field strength is variable by rotating the metal disc, but that is not the issue at hand. If by some small chance your Pulse Devil detects magnetic properties such as contained in iron then that is matchable by placing an appropriate magnetite within the vicinity of the metal disc.

Here is yet another way your unit can be tricked or shall I say the poor person trusting the machine. There very well could be an actually piece of iron, but next to that iron could be a really nice nugget or find. :-)

Dave, no offense, and A+ on trying to improve PI disc., but IMO no PI is going to get really good detectorists to not dig finds. Perhaps for a while they might be tricked, but eventually they'll be right back to digging everything. It's a nice feature, but I see it as a gizmo wooptido ... no offense intended".

In this case. your quote in the center was actually a fifth example that you added to your earlier list of four examples of how you could make a combination of targets appear to be iron. The context of this particular post was your alleging that you can trick the Pulse Devil every time. You gave 4 examples of gold nuggets or aluminum discs close to or in the vicinity of a piece of magnetite. I fail to see how the context has been changed in this example either. Your quote and the surrounding paragraphs show that you used theoretical arguments to attempt to prove that the Pulse Devil can't discriminate again, rather than actual tests done with the Pulse Devil. Isn't this what I represented in my post? Please show me where my errors are if I am wrong.


Pauls's quote #3 with all paragraphs:

"Starting a legal metal detecting company requires a lot of money, time, and work. I merely want the garage designer to be prepared because from what I've seen here, they are playing Russian roulette if they don't get their units FCC approved!

These pulses contain wideband frequencies. Take a look at a 10KHz pulse and you'll see appreciable frequencies in the MHz range. Lets analyze radiation resistance. Enter a 2-foot coil in an antenna simulation program and you will discover that it generates a far field. It is not like a yagi antenna. Please, a yagi antenna is designed to talk around the world. I have spent about 2 decades working with NEC antenna software. I am telling you right now, you put a 400+ volt pulse on a 2-foot coil and you are asking for trouble with the FCC.

Believe me, the last thing a garage designer wants is to get caught. The U.S. government is busy, but eventually they will get around to it and then the nightmare begins. The legal system is complex, but a good place to start is with FCC Part 15 regulatory standards. It does not matter if the detector is legal, which I seriously doubt some of these new ones are. They need to get FCC approved, period.

This post is not meant as a scare tactic. Just be prepared. Get a good lawyer. In the long run it will be cheap insurance, and the smart legal thing to do. Ignorance of the law is not a defense in court!"

Again, I ask where the context has changed after adding the remaining text to this post? Doesn't it still look like you are saying all metal detectors need to get FCC approved? Doesn't it still look like you are saying that eventually the government will get around to beginning the "nightmare"? Did I represent that you were saying anything different?

I carefully read all your posts starting including your new thread "Why a discriminating PI?", and found an overall context that is consistent with the context of all your subsequent posts: Your basic premise began with a manifesto detailing why the new generation of PI detectors could not discriminate, based on theories. This basic premise follows all your subsequent posts, including a number of theoretical obstacles you posted, namely the hazards of hunting in areas where gold nuggets are in near proximity to magnetite, and the hazards of the FCC who will eventually get around to beginning a "nightmare" for people who build metal detectors and don't get FCC approved. When looking at the whole picture, the question arises: Is paul trying to destroy NC-Dave's business venture? Is Paul seeking to insure that none of us will ever get a chance to buy a Pulse Devil?


I would never normally waste this much time and space on a post, but this is important.
While some say this is off-topic, I disagree. This has everything to do with the Pulse Devil and it's ability to find targets. I have been waiting for the production version of the Pulse Devil to come out because I want one if it does what Dave says it does. But I have read allegations that the Pulse Devil cannot accurately discriminate, and Paul can "fool it every time". I also read that it needs to get FCC approved, period. Now, all of a sudden, I have doubts that I should own this detector. I also wonder if I should abandon any ideas of building a Hammerhead PI.

Paul was quick to ask about why I took his quotes out of context, with no explanation what he feels the context was. Is it possible none of his quotes are out of context at all? Is it possible that Paul is only saying that as a technique to avoid answering the questions I asked? So far I have heard Paul make a lot of claims against the Pulse Devil, but no factual proof to substantiate these clsims. Only theories. Ok Paul, here is your chance to explain exactly what the proper context is for your quotes if I got it wrong. But just so you don't forget, I asked some questions that you never answered. Here they are again.

Can you please answer these questions?

1. Do you have any actual proof that the Pulse Devil can't tell the difference between a combination of magnetite and gold, or is this just a theoretical allegation you made based on the hypothesis that other designs of PI detectors might be fooled by these samples that you can assemble?

2. According to Dave Emery, his field experience with the Pulse Devil shows it does not see magnetite, and it can discriminate iron with a high degree of accuracy. He also said it found a small nugget next to an iron bolt that other detectors missed. Is it your position that he is lying to us about the magnetite? Is it your position that he is lying to us about the the Pulse Devil being able to discriminate iron?

3. Are you against development of the latest generation of PI detectors?

4. Are you trying to destroy the commercial development of the Pulse Devil?

5. Can you show some examples of metal detector builders who were fined, imprisoned, or were a defendant in a court action for failure to get FCC approved or failure to comply with the FCC rules?

[pml]

J_Player,

I used your single quote only to keep the size my post down to a reasonable size without adding a lot of extraneous verbage which anyone can read in your posts. Do you see any change in the context of your meanings when the surrounding paragraphs are included?

Yes, there's a huge difference. Lets analyze this ->

First section:

They show their VLF displaying metal type, if it's a coin or this or that. Professional detectorist knows it's false advertisement.

I was clearly referring to any VLF commercials that could mislead people into thinking such VLF machines can discriminate against metal type, coin or this or that.

Second section:

If you or anyone has a Pulse Devil that is making similar claims then I would very much like to try and disprove it.

This is NOT a claim. Please stop putting words into my mouth. Can you see the "if." I am clearly asking people if they know of anyone who has a Pulse Devil that is making similar claims. Got J_Player?

You gave 4 examples of gold nuggets or aluminum discs close to or in the vicinity of a piece of magnetite. I fail to see how the context has been changed in this example either. Your quote and the surrounding paragraphs show that you used theoretical arguments to attempt to prove that the Pulse Devil can't discriminate again, rather than actual tests done with the Pulse Devil. Isn't this what I represented in my post? Please show me where my errors are if I am wrong.

Yes, that is what I believe and it is anyone's duty to try and back up their words. I did my duty by stating the science behind it. I have repeatedly requested anyone to find the errors. Rather, most of you people would rather just argue and make claims without any science or evidence.

Doesn't it still look like you are saying all metal detectors need to get FCC approved?

Yes, that is what I said. I quoted the FCC Part 15 power table and even Carl admitted that it applies. I will quote Carl:

Here's just one section from of the FCC's site:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/p...rt15-2-1-06.pdf

Frequency Field Strength Measurement Distance
(MHz) --- (microvolts/meter) --- (meters)
---------------------------------------------
0.009 - 0.490 --- 2400/F(kHz) --- 300
0.490 - 1.705 --- 24000/F(kHz) --- 30
1.705 - 30.0 --- 30 --- 30
30 - 88 --- 100 ** --- 3
88 - 216 --- 150 ** --- 3
216 - 960 --- 200 ** --- 3
Above 960 --- 500 --- 3

Yup, these are the limits that apply to metal detectors, at least those that operate above 9kHz. Below 9kHz, there are no rules.

Again, I stated that I searched the entire FCC site with google and found no reference to exclude metal detectors. If there is a hidden FCC database that specifically excludes metal detectors then I make my correction and apologize. Perhaps JC1 said it best,

If you call the FCC they will tell you you must comply or die. Standard answer. and yet,,,,,,,,,,, Not quite the way the world works.

This has everything to do with the Pulse Devil and it's ability to find targets. I have been waiting for the production version of the Pulse Devil to come out because I want one if it does what Dave says it does.

J_Player, I have every right, the freedom, to state science as I understand it just as Dave, Carl or anyone else has that same freedom. You are not my dictator J_Player.

Paul was quick to ask about why I took his quotes out of context, with no explanation what he feels the context was. Is it possible none of his quotes are out of context at all? Is it possible that Paul is only saying that as a technique to avoid answering the questions I asked?

Wrong. I clearly pointed out in my previous reply to you what was taken out of context and corrected it. This time I made it even clearer.

A

1. Do you have any actual proof that the Pulse Devil can't tell the difference between a combination of magnetite and gold, or is this just a theoretical allegation you made based on the hypothesis that other designs of PI detectors might be fooled by these samples that you can assemble?

No, and I never stated that I have proof. I stated that I would like to disprove it for anyone who has a Pulse Devil and who is near L.A.

2. According to Dave Emery, his field experience with the Pulse Devil shows it does not see magnetite, and it can discriminate iron with a high degree of accuracy. He also said it found a small nugget next to an iron bolt that other detectors missed. Is it your position that he is lying to us about the magnetite? Is it your position that he is lying to us about the the Pulse Devil being able to discriminate iron?

Perhaps we'll never know since Dave did not answer my question as to if his machine can be tricked every time. I also stated how it is easy to detect a piece of small to medium size gold next to iron. Check the iron discriminator on MineLab GP3500. Is it better than Dave's machine. I have no idea. People say Dave's machine is accurate. I stated my definition of "accurate." I still wait to hear Dave's definition.

3. Are you against development of the latest generation of PI detectors?

Now how could I be when I have clearly stated that I am going to complete my unique metal detector design and will see if there's any deep gold to find and then I'll be back here to freely give away my designs. Perhaps that is what you are trying to do. To shut me up so that Dave and others can make money of selling machines. I already stated that I hope Dave and Eric do well, but I have no interest in selling metal detectors. I will give my designs away when I want to and there is nothing you can do about it. If you want to point the finger at me, then know it is a two way street. Have you heard of slander before? You tell me, are you trying to hush me up?

4. Are you trying to destroy the commercial development of the Pulse Devil?

No! Why would I try to get Dave to communicate with me here if I was trying to post a one sided story? You are the one who is posting an extremely one side story. I wished Dave and Eric the best and said my hats off to them if they can do it.

5. Can you show some examples of metal detector builders who were fined, imprisoned, or were a defendant in a court action for failure to get FCC approved or failure to comply with the FCC rules?

No. Every case is unique. My reasoning is that the FCC is a law governed by the United States of America. If you break the law then you can be punished. Are you saying it is no big deal to break the FCC laws? It sure is a big deal in my book and I have every right to voice what I think. I take every law of the land seriously. Don't you? I clearly requested time after time for any evidence. I even went out of my way to show FCC Part 15 power table, which even Carl acknowledged. So far I see only hearsay ... and I'm the bad guy, LOL! Gee, the good guys make claims without showing the FCC quotes or anything, but the bad good shows FCC quotes, etc., requests time after time for people to show his errors and is truth seeking. Hmmm, did I encounter some metal detecting mafia here?

Paul

[Unregistered]

Paul wrote----

"Hmmm, did I encounter some metal detecting mafia here?"

I write----

Yes, Paul, you must either pay the "family" or be from that bloodline, which you obviously are not.

There is a list, we are keeping of those who have paid up, so you will need to send your check to me, and I will forward the money to them.

To get a Xmit Ok for the major FCC frequencies such as radio and T.V. will require direct blood descendancy.

JC

[pml]

To get a Xmit Ok for the major FCC frequencies such as radio and T.V. will require direct blood descendancy.

Thankfully I have no interest in selling detectors.

[pml]

You just want to be arguementative.

Life is a two way street. What you call arguing I call information exchange.

They've turned over self governance to HAM radio because they didn't have enough employees to do it anymore. They took away the requirement for licensing CB radio because they didn't have enough employees to police it. Over and over the FCC is concerned about real violations, like jamming satellite TV, not metal detectors and drills. You really need to get out more.
-------
The whole point is that the FCC is low on resources.

Again, I did my work by showing FCC quotes. It is truth that I seek. What do you seek? Again I'll ask to simply show us the proof? Hearsay is a funny way to run a business.

Paul

[Unregistered]

Guess it's a good thing that that the vast majority of PI's

operate below 9khz hence to FCC Part 15 to deal with. I havent' read anything anywhere so far that states at what frequency the Pulse Devil Operates. Since Dave is an Engineer and probably familiar with FCC rules he may have kept the Pulse Devil below the 9khz threshold set by the FCC. Guess we'll find out when he posts the final Specs. Until then this is all just speculation. I would have to go read the specs on the Hammerhead but I think that also runs at less than 9khz but I am not positive on this.