Designing and marketing new metal detectors.

[UncleMatt]

hi Matt

one thing I've found out about LCD displays, their's sure expensive when it comes to microprocessor overhead, and that would hold true with sending a burst of data to a smart phone.

although it would be pretty neat to have the MD "brains" mounted in a waterproof case next to the shearchhead and use the smart phone as a display via blue tooth


Philip

I love your idea. But wouldn't a bluetooth signal corrupt the detection process nearby? I ask out of total ignorance. It brings up a good set of questions, namely do wireless signals in relatively close proximity to a detector coil interfere with its function and create interferance? If not, wonderful.

And I also remain hopeful that a proper app would be able to take raw input from the MD and present it graphically on the phone display without burdening the MD main processor too much.

[hdphilip]

Matt

I love your idea. But wouldn't a bluetooth signal corrupt the detection process nearby? I ask out of total ignorance. It brings up a good set of questions, namely do wireless signals in relatively close proximity to a detector coil interfere with its function and create interferance? If not, wonderful.

the bluetooth operate in the 2.4 ghz band so it may be not much of a issue.

And I also remain hopeful that a proper app would be able to take raw input from the MD and present it graphically on the phone display without burdening the MD main processor too much

now thats where the problem happens, from what i'm finding in my experiments, i plan to only write to the lcd screen when a "peak" signal occurs, kinda like a snapsot of the target decay, constanly writing to the LCD screen may make the sweep speed painfully slow

so to apply this to a smartphone, you would only look at it when you have something instresting in your headset

Philip

[bklein]

I wonder if a mine detector is really the right approach. The bad guy could lay out one or more mines and then contaminate the area with BB's or the like.
I'd wonder if a better approach would be to try and set them off intentionally with a cheap expendible system. I'm thinking high water pressure or perhaps vertically-oriented weed-wacker array. Could be done for under the $100 target price but be sacrificial. Also with either approach you can visibly tell where you've scanned.
I guess we now need to form www.geotech2.com - the weed-wacker pressure washer mine detonator forum....

[Carl-NC]

I'm not quite sure what the intent of this thread was, but it seems to have turned into define-a-new-product. Maybe one that an individual could tackle and potentially market.

Besides a consumer-grade mine detector, other niche detectors are nugget, relic, meteorites, salt/surf, agriculture, and fake jewelry/coins.

Be careful not to get too aggressive in a first version. Raw performance wins over gadgetry. No display, no smart phone interface, no USB, no wireless. This stuff amazingly stretches out design times with little payback for a first model. Take a look at Nautilus, Blisstool, Red Heat, Nexus, PulseStar... all simple but effective (well, Blisstool could have fewer knobs).

[ivconic]

I love your idea. But wouldn't a bluetooth signal corrupt the detection process nearby? I ask out of total ignorance. It brings up a good set of questions, namely do wireless signals in relatively close proximity to a detector coil interfere with its function and create interferance? If not, wonderful.

And I also remain hopeful that a proper app would be able to take raw input from the MD and present it graphically on the phone display without burdening the MD main processor too much.

Nope!
Deus is perfect example for that.
UHF will not interfere nor disturb VLF processes if rf paths are done "clean" with proper harmonics suppression.
This implies especially at digital form of signals.
Besides; at Deus signal is digitized at coil outputs, meaning very short path there.
So it is already done very well in practice.
....
Yes, good thinking!

[ivconic]

I wonder if a mine detector is really the right approach. The bad guy could lay out one or more mines and then contaminate the area with BB's or the like.
I'd wonder if a better approach would be to try and set them off intentionally with a cheap expendible system. I'm thinking high water pressure or perhaps vertically-oriented weed-wacker array. Could be done for under the $100 target price but be sacrificial. Also with either approach you can visibly tell where you've scanned.
I guess we now need to form www.geotech2.com - the weed-wacker pressure washer mine detonator forum....

It is tempty. Detecting such titanium alloys at greater depths is very tempty to achieve.
Apart from demining and stuff.

[Midas]

I wonder if a mine detector is really the right approach. The bad guy could lay out one or more mines and then contaminate the area with BB's or the like.
I'd wonder if a better approach would be to try and set them off intentionally with a cheap expendible system. I'm thinking high water pressure or perhaps vertically-oriented weed-wacker array. Could be done for under the $100 target price but be sacrificial. Also with either approach you can visibly tell where you've scanned.
I guess we now need to form www.geotech2.com - the weed-wacker pressure washer mine detonator forum....

Im afaid you've been beaten to that idea by a few decades. Not sure if they are still in use or if not, why not.. Sounds like a better idea to me than tedious hand de-mining.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail

Edit: Ok now I've read the wiki I see they aren't as reliable as one might think.

I hope I didn't give the impression I wanted the smartphone to perform any main functions of the MD, only add peripheral utility to it with add ons.

I know the main discussion centers here around practical function of the MD, but marketing must also be considered for any successful product. Anything that will widen the demographic base without sacrificing those practical considerations should probably be considered.

For example, a young woman in my office saw a bunch of metal detecting equipment being delivered to me, and asked with a smile on her face if I was going to go metal detecting like elderly guys do in the park. That perception is a big barrier to higher sales of metal detectors, and adding smartphone integration to the MD will help the product attract a younger demographic without sacrificing appeal to older generations. An example of this would be to have various GUI options on the smartphone display to attract younger markets. It may sound totally stupid to us, but even adding cute little interactive avatars/characters to the display, or wireless ability so they can post their finds to Facebook and Twitter, will attract more buyers from a demographic that is totally ignored by current MD companies. How many MD companies offer their detectors in pink for example?

Having the option to dock your smartphone on the MD opens up all these possibilities without adding any hardware to the MD, or its associated production costs, only software that comprises the android/iphone application.

Sammity Sam is the obvious choice for an avatar. I'm sure there's loads of appropriate sound bytes out there. Mind you it would probably cost a bomb to get Warno Bros. to let you use him.

Really though the I think the reason no metal detector company has targeted potential new demographics is because it would hurt them in there main market. Lets be honest a pink metal detector would be considered a kids toy no matter how good it was. Even if they produced other more serious models (in ubiquitous black) it would taint their reputation.
Midas

[Woody.au]

Make a land mine that explodes when subjected to a couple of volts of emf, a charge pump and low voltage miniature solenoid can pull the firing pin when a detector goes over it..A whole new market..

[UncleMatt]

Im afaid you've been beaten to that idea by a few decades. Not sure if they are still in use or if not, why not.. Sounds like a better idea to me than tedious hand de-mining.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail

Edit: Ok now I've read the wiki I see they aren't as reliable as one might think.



Sammity Sam is the obvious choice for an avatar. I'm sure there's loads of appropriate sound bytes out there. Mind you it would probably cost a bomb to get Warno Bros. to let you use him.

Really though the I think the reason no metal detector company has targeted potential new demographics is because it would hurt them in there main market. Lets be honest a pink metal detector would be considered a kids toy no matter how good it was. Even if they produced other more serious models (in ubiquitous black) it would taint their reputation.
Midas

If grown men can't handle the fact their MD is offered by the manufacturer in colors that might appeal to someone other than them, that would be a pretty sad state of affairs...

And any avatars/on screen characters would need to appeal to the demographic they are aimed at, not just expect all people to want "Sammity Sam". Many companies often hurt themselves by this kind of mindset. Look at how GM has operated for decades: "People will buy what we want them to", instead of "We need to appeal to our consumers and provide products they actually want". I think often executives get in a rut, and have such huge egos, that they think what THEY want is what everyone wants. Often not the case, and thinking that way is a path to your business tanking.

[ivconic]

Make a land mine that explodes when subjected to a couple of volts of emf, a charge pump and low voltage miniature solenoid can pull the firing pin when a detector goes over it..A whole new market..

Eh! We are here to find a way to safely detect mines - not to prevent their detection!

[Tinkerer]

I'm not quite sure what the intent of this thread was, but it seems to have turned into define-a-new-product. Maybe one that an individual could tackle and potentially market.

Besides a consumer-grade mine detector, other niche detectors are nugget, relic, meteorites, salt/surf, agriculture, and fake jewelry/coins.

Be careful not to get too aggressive in a first version. Raw performance wins over gadgetry. No display, no smart phone interface, no USB, no wireless. This stuff amazingly stretches out design times with little payback for a first model. Take a look at Nautilus, Blisstool, Red Heat, Nexus, PulseStar... all simple but effective (well, Blisstool could have fewer knobs).

Designing and marketing new metal detectors.
There are large companies with well established trade names. It would be foolish to try to compete with them.
There is a certain amount of niche products that do not fit into the large company structures.
Thanks for pointing out a few of the possible niche detectors above.

Is the combined brain of the forum capable of developing such a niche product?

For the development, first we need to define the product. Out of the 7 possible niche products, which one do we want to pick? Are we capable to develop the preferred pick?

How far do we want to go with the development?

Do we want to make a few prototypes just to conquer the challenge?

Do we want to look at the possibilities of manufacturing the product? What are the challenges there? Is it possible to find a manufacturer that will build a small series on order?

On order? So we would have to identify a market and know how to sell the product.
This means that we need to look at the marketing before we start designing.

Ah, so now we are there, as you mention above. DEFINING A NEW METAL DETECTOR.

It seems that we have 2 lines of thought so far:

One ultra simple, low cost, but very strong and rugged execution, non-military mine detector. It turns out that this detector needs to be s sensitive that it could well be used for nugget detecting also.

The other line of thought, goes the other direction.

An ultra detector with many gadgets, GPS, Android, Tablet hook up etc.
We still need to identify what the marketing niche is for such a detector, but there seem to be quite a few people who would be willing to work on that.

Tinkerer

[Aziz]

Hi guys,

Unfortunately, I'm not interested in this topic.

But I'm interested in:
"How to knock-out a million/billion dollar greedy company with simple and cheap solutions?"

Aziz

[ivconic]

Hi guys,

Unfortunately, I'm not interested in this topic.

But I'm interested in:
"How to knock-out a million/billion dollar greedy company with simple and cheap solutions?"

Aziz

Join them!

[Midas]

If grown men can't handle the fact their MD is offered by the manufacturer in colors that might appeal to someone other than them, that would be a pretty sad state of affairs...

And any avatars/on screen characters would need to appeal to the demographic they are aimed at, not just expect all people to want "Sammity Sam". Many companies often hurt themselves by this kind of mindset. Look at how GM has operated for decades: "People will buy what we want them to", instead of "We need to appeal to our consumers and provide products they actually want". I think often executives get in a rut, and have such huge egos, that they think what THEY want is what everyone wants. Often not the case, and thinking that way is a path to your business tanking.

Yeah OK, perhaps it's a minority of people that would let their subconscious prejudices affect their decision. But you have to balance that with extra sales you would get from a having a true, girly girl detector. My feeling is that most women\girls that are interested in MD couldn't care less if their detector is black or pink.

I never said everyone would want Sammity Sam. It was just the most obvious to me. Common he's a classic. Bound to appeal to the kids.. and immature 31 year old's such as myself

I guess the key is market research. Personally I think a pink metal detector would bomb big time. But if you made some calls and found that there was 1000s of women who really wanted to get into the hobby and were just waiting for their sex appropriate MD to come onto the market. Then sure, go for it.

Midas

[Midas]

Designing and marketing new metal detectors.
There are large companies with well established trade names. It would be foolish to try to compete with them.
There is a certain amount of niche products that do not fit into the large company structures.
Thanks for pointing out a few of the possible niche detectors above.

Is the combined brain of the forum capable of developing such a niche product?

For the development, first we need to define the product. Out of the 7 possible niche products, which one do we want to pick? Are we capable to develop the preferred pick?

How far do we want to go with the development?

Do we want to make a few prototypes just to conquer the challenge?

Do we want to look at the possibilities of manufacturing the product? What are the challenges there? Is it possible to find a manufacturer that will build a small series on order?

On order? So we would have to identify a market and know how to sell the product.
This means that we need to look at the marketing before we start designing.

Ah, so now we are there, as you mention above. DEFINING A NEW METAL DETECTOR.

It seems that we have 2 lines of thought so far:

One ultra simple, low cost, but very strong and rugged execution, non-military mine detector. It turns out that this detector needs to be s sensitive that it could well be used for nugget detecting also.

The other line of thought, goes the other direction.

An ultra detector with many gadgets, GPS, Android, Tablet hook up etc.
We still need to identify what the marketing niche is for such a detector, but there seem to be quite a few people who would be willing to work on that.

Tinkerer

Its a very difficult issue Tinkerer. Lots of people here have the skills required I'm sure, and while its community based thing without any intention of making a profit they may even be willing to contribute. But as soon as there is potential spoils to divide up it becomes a hell of a lot harder. Who decides what a contribution is worth? What about the capital investment ? Somebody will have to provide it and would reasonably expect a % of the profits in return. Who actually does the leg work organizing manufacture and sales? They should probably draw an income from the group to cover their time. These are probably just some of the issues that caused the collapse of previous commercial design groups.

On the mine detector MD. I don't think Carl was suggesting a detector capable of clearing modern mines. As you say the performance required to do that is really very high and assuming you could build it, it would command a higher price in the nugget shooter market. Rather something very simple and cheap that only needs to detect older mines with full metal casings. The surf pi is probably perfect.

Midas