field test unit no 001 "model T"

[robby_h]

I got it this time!!!!!! A simple proof!!!!! The spider wound coil must go deeper! There is an apparent depth advantage visible!!!!
Yeah!, I'm smart! I'm ultra-ultimate super smart!!! I'm super-duper genius!!!! I'm a real coil guru!!! *LOL*

[ATTACH]29526[/ATTACH]
^²

But the Moodz basket weave coil is about three times as thick as a bundle wound coil and will be thicker still when it is shielded and insulated with foam.

[Aziz]

But the Moodz basket weave coil is about three times as thick as a bundle wound coil and will be thicker still when it is shielded and insulated with foam.

Nope. Same applies to the bundle wound coils however.
Well, I can make the spider coil relative thin. Even a 2 mm thick shielding gap layer would make the spider coil thinner than the bundle coil.

^³ (³ due to super-smartness )

[Aziz]

Coil Guru is coming...



^4

[moodz]

But the Moodz basket weave coil is about three times as thick as a bundle wound coil and will be thicker still when it is shielded and insulated with foam.

COIL TYPE	24 x 14" Goldstalker®
SHAPE	ROUND	ELLIPTICAL	ELLIPTICAL
KNOWN AS	18" GS	22" GS	24x14” GS
LENGTH	450mm	540mm	590mm
WIDTH	450mm	540mm	345mm
COLOUR	TAN	TAN	TAN
CONFIGURATION	MONO	MONO	DD
WEIGHT (AV.)	915gm	1100gm	1018gm
CABLE LENGTH (AV.)	1.7mtr	1.7mtr	1.7mtr
SKIDPLATE ‐Supplied	FITTED	FITTED	Fitted
SKIDPLATE ‐Accessory	SOLID	SOLID	Solid
SHAFT HOLE BOLT SIZE	1/4 INCH	1/4 INCH	1/4 Inch
COIL TAPE USED	BLACK	BLACK	BLACK
WATER RESISTANT	YES	YES	YES
WATER PROOF	NO	NO	NO
PLASTIC TYPE	ABS	ABS	ABS
PLUG TYPE	GOLD PLATED	GOLD PLATED	GOLD PLATED
APPLICABLE DETECTOR	SD / GP / GPX SERIES	SD / GP / GPX SERIES	SD / GP / GPX SERIES

Sure Robby ... another stab in the dark .... the 18 inch basket coil is 7 mm thick 10 mm with spacers and shielding and comes in at 720 gram. The coiltek 18 inch is 915 gram and a few mm thicker.

[Aziz]

Hey Moodz,
did you read my PM? It is very important man!
^

[moodz]

I read it LOL .... adapted and arranged.

[Aziz]

I read it LOL .... adapted and arranged.

Fine. So you are very careful in making further claims now... Ok? *LOL*

Who's got to be tarred and feathered now?
Doug, Moodz, ^sif (myself)
or
Robby_H, PJ, UFox?
(including all the gurus making bundle coils too)

That's the very interesting question.

Hey guys, how much have you got to fund the results so far?
I'm totally bankrupt and my "gut feeling" isn't working properly due to starvation.
I'm looking for a "free lunch" & "free beer" ... *LOL*
^

[robby_h]

Sure Robby ... another stab in the dark .... the 18 inch basket coil is 7 mm thick 10 mm with spacers and shielding and comes in at 720 gram. The coiltek 18 inch is 915 gram and a few mm thicker.

I should have given that a bit more thought, the edge on view is a bit misleading but probably equals the thickness of the spacer plus 2.5mm for the windings and another 2.5 for the shell.
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/attac...9&d=1397565068
It will be quite a bit thicker though if insulated with the usual thickness of foam.

The 18" bundle wound windings are around 4mm plus the foam and shell, and some coils are very thin which suggests they have spread more turns across the coil.

None of this really changes anything though does it?

[Aziz]

...
None of this really changes anything though does it?

That's the big interesting question "big master & guru".
To get or not to get tarred & feathered! *LOL*

What do you think Robby_H?
^

[Aziz]

Occam's Razor Principle

I want to remember to the Occam's Razor Principle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor


We know, that the coil designers & makers aren't dumb people. Sure?
One could seriously ask, why the basket/spider weave coils have never been used in the production yet.
If there were any real advantage, it would very likely have been used before. Sure?


I'm very sure about the very high complexity of the question. Sure?
A lot of factors are making the equations very complex to solve.
We have complex integral equations, differential equations, many parameters, etc...
No, I don't think, that anybody can solve it.
You have to build many prototypes to see the result.
Who is actually making the coils?
^sif

[Davor]

Hanlon's razor is the answer

Stupidity before malice! It is stupidity and fear that rules the world, not malice and bad intentions.

[Aziz]

I got it this time!!!!!! A simple proof!!!!! The spider wound coil must go deeper! There is an apparent depth advantage visible!!!!
Yeah!, I'm smart! I'm ultra-ultimate super smart!!! I'm super-duper genius!!!! I'm a real coil guru!!! *LOL*

[ATTACH]29526[/ATTACH]
^²

Ok guys,

forget the above so-called "depth advantage". That was a nice trivial joke of course.

Assume, that we have the same vertical thickness for both coils. So no apparent depth advantage will be there anymore. For the sake of fairness and to make Robby_H happy of course.

That's a very interesting case now.
Which coil will do better?

^sif

[Aziz]

Stupidity before malice! It is stupidity and fear that rules the world, not malice and bad intentions.

That is really interesting Davor.
Do you really think, that the coil designers were totally stupid? *LOL*
^

[Kev]

I should give up but....
I don't know what the coil Q was but was told it was substantially more than the miserable 3.9 you quote (a member here said Q higher than ~3.9 won't work, how did you address this?)
You should wear floaties when you jump in the deep end Doug.

This may have been the case with early GPs and the 5k but it is not necessarily so with the 3k5, 4k and 4k5.

Some Q's for you
Minelab stock DD TX-Q= 5.29, RX-Q= 0.152
Coiltek 14x9 Goldstalker Mono Q= 4
Coiltek 18x12 Goldstalker Mono Q= 3.78
Nugget Finder 14x9 Mono Q= 5.5 (yes that's right 5.5 and its a fantastic coil!)

That 14x9 Nugget Finder is the most sensitive coil I've ever owned, it will get gram+ bits deeper than the 18x12 Coiltek and smaller sub gram bits deeper than the Coiltek 14x9. Often 0.05g bits up to an inch in caliche.

I have built coils up to a Q of 5 and they have worked very well, not as good as the NF though.
I aim for a Q of 4.5 to 4.8

Because Moodzs detector is not a Minelab he can engineer whatever coil parameters he so desires

Kev.

[robby_h]

This may have been the case with early GPs and the 5k but it is not necessarily so with the 3k5, 4k and 4k5.

Some Q's for you
Minelab stock DD TX-Q= 5.29, RX-Q= 0.152
Coiltek 14x9 Goldstalker Mono Q= 4
Coiltek 18x12 Goldstalker Mono Q= 3.78
Nugget Finder 14x9 Mono Q= 5.5 (yes that's right 5.5 and its a fantastic coil!)

That 14x9 Nugget Finder is the most sensitive coil I've ever owned, it will get gram+ bits deeper than the 18x12 Coiltek and smaller sub gram bits deeper than the Coiltek 14x9. Often 0.05g bits up to an inch in caliche.

I have built coils up to a Q of 5 and they have worked very well, not as good as the NF though.
I aim for a Q of 4.5 to 4.8

Because Moodzs detector is not a Minelab he can engineer whatever coil parameters he so desires

Kev.

I quoted you Kev because I know the 3.9 figure doesn't universally apply, but Doug obviously doesn't now this.

The shape of the coil decay curve at the first sampling point determines if a coil will or won't "work" (fire up) when connected to a fixed TX/RX circuit and I think most here know what can influence this shape. The Q is only an indicator if the designer considers the capacitance, something you would do but a novice might not.

One 3rd party 14" mono has 0.6 ohms resistance and yet it was everyone's favorite until other sizes appeared and another not so successful coil had 0.9 ohms resistance. Some coils had metal screens and were very noisy and others dropped the TX coil inductance. These all "worked" on ML detectors.

The most sensitive coil isn't always the best though if that sensitivity is because the decay curve has ripple at the first sampling point.

It is interesting to note that one manufacturer's early coil shows no obvious ripple but their latest does! Very sensitive but noisy on bad ground.

Moodz's detector appears to rely on excess ripple thus breaking pulse induction's main rule and so of course he can engineer whatever coil parameters he so desires and that would be okay... but he was talking about making ~40 per day and selling the things for 100 bucks each on Doug's forum.