Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[detectormods]

Too many very smart people throw their very valuable I.P away to third parties!

My advice,

Divulge nothing.

Every time you post technical content third parties hoover it up.

I wonder where Minelab would be today if Dr Bruce Candy posted his research all over the web!

Be very careful of Wolves in Sheeps clothing.

[WM6]

This is great thread! I hope BW takes your advice!

You never know. I fear that there is no "win in win" for ML in this case. (Bad or good) reputation is a marketable commodity.

[chudster]

If this matter is allowed to proceed and become a legal precedent then forget any open source detector projects no matter how you try and set them up!

Forget any new detectors or any real competition unless you have mega bucks to fight ML!

Any open source or other kind of detector project will inevitably be infiltrated by ML spies and ML will use your ideas for their own benefit!

I do not believe this is correct. A little knowledge of the legal and patent system and BW situation and points on this thread points to good solutions.

Then our open source project is dead because we too will suffer the same fate as this little bloke!

Is this really what anyone wants?

Not at all..... and it does not have to be if you can piece together the info in this thread.

Provided enough people are interested then watch this space.....

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

This is great thread! I hope BW takes your advice!

[WM6]

Well, this isn't true in the least. There is no cartel, no collusion, not even cooperation. Sounds like a Doug Conspiracy. How could XP or Blisstool or Nexus or Red Heat or half a dozen PI makers have arisen with this powerful cartel to crush them? No, the problem with the QED, and the resulting sledgehammer response, is all on the behavior of the people involved. They got what they were begging for, and they're surprised? Really?

- Carl

No doubt, that there was too much red words around ML/QED, as you say. But question is, why this happen from very start of QED project (look at mockery in old/first "QED" tread here started by BW).

Ivconic will not agree, but maybe the reason why XP etc. have been left alone is simply because they do not pose a market threat the the major detector player ML or the smaller players like Whites.

Seems the QED poses a huge enough threat to ML's market share of the gold detector market (and to smaller players like Whites too).

Now, as we can detect, present ML actions/goals are two-fold:

1. To kill of any chance of the QED ever being a marketable product

2. To acquire by the back door the patented IP of the detector and hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone by getting Moodz's work as well! Indicates Moodz will be next!

Why now, if we know that ML have ample opportunity to request that the QED patent be re-examined and to object to it on the basis that it contains ML prior art (patents) with a priority date before that of the QED patent?

Why have they not done so?

Why are they taking this legal action now when the QED is still purely experimental (ML side say that even non-existing), none have been sold and no one has gained any pecuniary or other benefits from testing it?

ML's actions are now under scrutiny and if they want to avoid some some issues that they would rather not be made public then they should gracefully withdraw their legal intimidation ... or .. if they believe the QED infringes any ML IP giving BW the opportunity of remedying the situation or at least offering him a fair and reasonable license to use their IP (something normal, if there is only commercial interest behind ML action).

If this matter is allowed to proceed and become a legal precedent then forget any open source detector projects no matter how you try and set them up!

Forget any new detectors or any real competition unless you have mega bucks to fight ML!

Any open source or other kind of detector project will inevitably be infiltrated by ML spies and ML will use your ideas for their own benefit!

Worse still, they will use the recently broken US patent system to patent others smart ideas by the use of smart patent lawyers and almost undecipherable open to wide interpretation, and complex and convoluted patents!

Then our open source project is dead because we too will suffer the same fate as this little bloke!

Is this really what anyone wants?

[chudster]

The BOTTOM LINE is this...

All BW has to do is IGNORE LameNib, do as I stated in my previous post and write them a polite letter stating that THEY have to prove infringement AND that they have suffered a loss of business as a result (ask to see the SPECIFIC accounting which CLEARLY shows this loss).

LambBie will spend so much time fabricating evidence that they will most likely give up. remember, THEY are the ones spending the $$$$ at this point to prove a LIE in a CIVIL COURT..

Now, look at that last statement...CIVIL, NOT CRIMINAL which means if BW chooses NOT to take part in what is a pathetic attempt to litigate competition out of existence by a FAILING company then NO ONE on earth can MAKE him comply. the burden of proof is THEIRS, NOT his.. he is INNOCENT until THEY can prove 100% beyond ALL reasonable doubt that he has infringed upon their patent (which is probably a rehash of someone else's anyhow knowing those involved).

What they are trying to do is scare him out of business or make him run to an expensive lawyer and deprive him of the funds he needs to get off the ground. LET THEM DO NEITHER. They are pathetic bullies who will soon be in court filing for bankruptcy if they carry on like this.

Put the boot on the other foot.. If this was Whites, they would be offering to HELP the guy by producing the machine under license. THAT is the difference and THAT is why I will ALWAYS buy Whites over poorly made Limeban rubbish ANYDAY!

Sean,

I agree that much in your post is good advice but here the devil is in the detail and like you I am a little blind. It appears that a basis for the action is a granted patent in BW's name. If he does nothing he may get a default judgement that his patent is invalid. I am not sure if Minelab has claimed any damages but if so he could get a default judgement for damages if he does not defend.

In any case it appears that he has consented to disclose the innermost details of his detector and its development to Minelab. Whether that was based on good advice or not I cannot say. There are some that have not a great deal of sympathy for BW given the postings and actions on various forums that he and his associates have made apparently provoking Minelab.

There are two issues:
1) How to help BW.
2) How to set up things better to create an innovative environment for hobbyists, learning from the problems that you, BW and others have had with industry entanglement.

I am not sure without further details that I can help BW and I am not sure that a forum would be an appropriate place to discuss it anyway.

I thank you for your posts as it has stimulated good ideas for 2 which this thread was opened for.

Chudster

[WM6]

Now I can TRULY say... BOYCOTT ML NOW....SPREAD THE WORD!!!

!

I am with you Sean. Right approach.

Only, as far I know ML prefer pinky proclamations:

BOYCOTT ML NOW....SPREAD THE WORD!!!

[chudster]

Sean,

Thanks for your post. In the UK system its not free but its 20 pounds to file a provisional which is pretty close to free and it can be done online. You do lose your priority date when you refile. Of course that is the official fee for filing and does not include any legal advice so its a DIY cost.

Assuming a good DIY job is done writing the patent then the big $$$ start coming should you want to take it to the next stage.

That's where strategy comes in and you can refile as you said up to a year later (losing your priority date) but there may also be other options.......

Looking forward to getting this conference call together to discuss more with like minded people.

Chudster

The BOTTOM LINE is this...

All BW has to do is IGNORE LameNib, do as I stated in my previous post and write them a polite letter stating that THEY have to prove infringement AND that they have suffered a loss of business as a result (ask to see the SPECIFIC accounting which CLEARLY shows this loss).

LambBie will spend so much time fabricating evidence that they will most likely give up. remember, THEY are the ones spending the $$$$ at this point to prove a LIE in a CIVIL COURT..

Now, look at that last statement...CIVIL, NOT CRIMINAL which means if BW chooses NOT to take part in what is a pathetic attempt to litigate competition out of existence by a FAILING company then NO ONE on earth can MAKE him comply. the burden of proof is THEIRS, NOT his.. he is INNOCENT until THEY can prove 100% beyond ALL reasonable doubt that he has infringed upon their patent (which is probably a rehash of someone else's anyhow knowing those involved).

What they are trying to do is scare him out of business or make him run to an expensive lawyer and deprive him of the funds he needs to get off the ground. LET THEM DO NEITHER. They are pathetic bullies who will soon be in court filing for bankruptcy if they carry on like this.

Put the boot on the other foot.. If this was Whites, they would be offering to HELP the guy by producing the machine under license. THAT is the difference and THAT is why I will ALWAYS buy Whites over poorly made Limeban rubbish ANYDAY!

Now I can TRULY say... BOYCOTT ML NOW....SPREAD THE WORD!!!

OR....

Even BETTER...

If EVERYONE on this forum contributes a fund to BW to help him get the design off the ground ( BW forms an LLC with ALL contributors listed as Directors) ML can't sue ALL of us if we got say 250 ppl, but we COULD fund a counter-sue motion citing their re-hash patents. We've got the evidence let's GET THEM ON THE RUN!!!! $100 per pop would make them spend 10 times that defending their patents as the USPO and others would go back and review them. ML would have to submit modified versions to cover themselves. This would cost MORE.

FYI Patent protection DOESN'T cost thousands, you can get it FREE..Here's how.... file in the UK under a provisional application and you are granted 364 days protection AUTOMATICALLY as "PATENT PENDING". TWO WEEKS BEFORE the expiry, you re-file a modified document with slightly different claims. BINGO another 364 days FREE protection..SWEET. If I can remember which form it is to use I will post here later.

How's THAT for dirty fighting ML? Pick a fight with my friends, you pick a fight with ME!

[Sean_Goddard]

The BOTTOM LINE is this...

All BW has to do is IGNORE LameNib, do as I stated in my previous post and write them a polite letter stating that THEY have to prove infringement AND that they have suffered a loss of business as a result (ask to see the SPECIFIC accounting which CLEARLY shows this loss).

LambBie will spend so much time fabricating evidence that they will most likely give up. remember, THEY are the ones spending the $$$$ at this point to prove a LIE in a CIVIL COURT..

Now, look at that last statement...CIVIL, NOT CRIMINAL which means if BW chooses NOT to take part in what is a pathetic attempt to litigate competition out of existence by a FAILING company then NO ONE on earth can MAKE him comply. the burden of proof is THEIRS, NOT his.. he is INNOCENT until THEY can prove 100% beyond ALL reasonable doubt that he has infringed upon their patent (which is probably a rehash of someone else's anyhow knowing those involved).

What they are trying to do is scare him out of business or make him run to an expensive lawyer and deprive him of the funds he needs to get off the ground. LET THEM DO NEITHER. They are pathetic bullies who will soon be in court filing for bankruptcy if they carry on like this.

Put the boot on the other foot.. If this was Whites, they would be offering to HELP the guy by producing the machine under license. THAT is the difference and THAT is why I will ALWAYS buy Whites over poorly made Limeban rubbish ANYDAY!

Now I can TRULY say... BOYCOTT ML NOW....SPREAD THE WORD!!!

OR....

Even BETTER...

If EVERYONE on this forum contributes a fund to BW to help him get the design off the ground ( BW forms an LLC with ALL contributors listed as Directors) ML can't sue ALL of us if we got say 250 ppl, but we COULD fund a counter-sue motion citing their re-hash patents. We've got the evidence let's GET THEM ON THE RUN!!!! $100 per pop would make them spend 10 times that defending their patents as the USPO and others would go back and review them. ML would have to submit modified versions to cover themselves. This would cost MORE.

FYI Patent protection DOESN'T cost thousands, you can get it FREE..Here's how.... file in the UK under a provisional application and you are granted 364 days protection AUTOMATICALLY as "PATENT PENDING". TWO WEEKS BEFORE the expiry, you re-file a modified document with slightly different claims. BINGO another 364 days FREE protection..SWEET. If I can remember which form it is to use I will post here later.

How's THAT for dirty fighting ML? Pick a fight with my friends, you pick a fight with ME!

[ivconic]

I've seen a much longer post today.
I shouldn't smoke the stuff I'm used to...

Cheers,
Aziz

I edited it and deleted my usual bs!
My too fast tongue will kill me one day!
BTW Maria Anna is good companion in these business, brings up fresh ideas!
But this time is not up to her!

[Aziz]

Well said!
That is kind a attitude that i can only agree with.
From very respectful company seems they turned to real globalistic parasite lately!
I've been long enough in this to notice and follow their "progressing curve" and am more than disappointed.
Cheers!

I've seen a much longer post today.
I shouldn't smoke the stuff I'm used to...

Cheers,
Aziz

[ivconic]

LameBin tried this legal route with me many years ago. SO....I scanned in ALL the documents I had marked "confidential" from their lawyers and posted them on the internet. THEN I posted links on every forum, discussion board and website I could find. Next thing I get a call from Gerry Brannigan (then LimeBan CEO) he is asking "WTF is this you've done to us and WHY"? I explained that this was all down to their idiot in Ireland Mr. Vachet. Needless to say I hit their sales because Mr. Brannigan was VERY apologetic and said that he completely agreed with my side of the issue. I got a WRITTEN apology signed by him and Vachet was removed from his position shortly afterwards.

REMEMBER THIS.. The ONE thing that REALLY hurts parasites and big companies is BAD PUBLICITY. Two can play dirty games, and I'm a meister at "hitting below the belt". If you want to hurt someone really badly, there's NO better place to hit them than in the wallet!

IMHO BW should just tell LimpBin to "Go do one" do what I did and splatter their pettiness all over the internet, fast and big. If you're gonna go down, best go down fighting, and in war ALL if fair!

BW's mistake was that he should have operated through an LLC which would have been sued. When it was found that the company had no assets (was just a front) the suee(?!?) gets a nice big bill from their lawyers, nothing out of the shell company and a bitter taste from having spent a load of $$$$ for no return . Simple tactic and IT WORKS!!

Well said!
That is kind a attitude that i can only agree with.
From very respectful company seems they turned to real globalistic parasite lately!
I've been long enough in this to notice and follow their "progressing curve" and am more than disappointed.
Cheers!

[Aziz]

That's very interesting Sean! Thanks for sharing your experience.
Cheers,
Aziz

[Sean_Goddard]

Minelab did that!?
No sympathies for Minelab any more!!
Minelab is history, fading to oblivion!
We enthusiasts and hobbyists can do something about that:
spread the word, do anti campaign and prevent people to waste money on their overpriced yet pretty average detectors.
War on Minelab, from now on!
...
XP rules!
XP is No1!

LameBin tried this legal route with me many years ago. SO....I scanned in ALL the documents I had marked "confidential" from their lawyers and posted them on the internet. THEN I posted links on every forum, discussion board and website I could find. Next thing I get a call from Gerry Brannigan (then LimeBan CEO) he is asking "WTF is this you've done to us and WHY"? I explained that this was all down to their idiot in Ireland Mr. Vachet. Needless to say I hit their sales because Mr. Brannigan was VERY apologetic and said that he completely agreed with my side of the issue. I got a WRITTEN apology signed by him and Vachet was removed from his position shortly afterwards.

REMEMBER THIS.. The ONE thing that REALLY hurts parasites and big companies is BAD PUBLICITY. Two can play dirty games, and I'm a meister at "hitting below the belt". If you want to hurt someone really badly, there's NO better place to hit them than in the wallet!

IMHO BW should just tell LimpBin to "Go do one" do what I did and splatter their pettiness all over the internet, fast and big. If you're gonna go down, best go down fighting, and in war ALL if fair!

BW's mistake was that he should have operated through an LLC which would have been sued. When it was found that the company had no assets (was just a front) the suee(?!?) gets a nice big bill from their lawyers, nothing out of the shell company and a bitter taste from having spent a load of $$$$ for no return . Simple tactic and IT WORKS!!

[chudster]

Very interesting to read. I design products for companies independently.

I think one thing to bear in mind is that companies operate to make money and to maintain their own legal status in good order. They need to have a commercial reason to take someone to court, otherwise there is no point.

So why would a company take someone or another company to court?
1) They are competitive and by taking competitors and new startup companies to court they limit competition. It costs money to defend, the bigger you are the more money you have to do it...so you may want to crush startups before they have a chance of generating revenue to defend. To most engineers this is not what they went into engineering for, but it is the way many companies operate. Lets face it, once your core patents have expired your next legal line of defense is to use supplementary patents to stop the growth of startups and competitors.
2) Patent trolls, they will wait for companies to reach revenue then hit them and hope they will pay up. They are not interested in crushing companies, they want money from them. Unfortunately they also push many patents that should not have been issued and as a small company you cannot afford to go to court...so you are blackmailed. (They may of course want to put you out of business if they have a big key exclusive licensee royalty to protect)
3) If a "company A" licenses its IP to another "company B", the company licensing has a responsibility to police who uses the IP. If you have a great patent, you sell it to a "company B" for $500k, then you do nothing to stop "company C" from using it for free, then "company B" paid for competitive advantage and is not getting it. "Company B" may then want to take "Company A" to court to get their $500k back.

Now looking at the hobbiest, most companies will not worry too much about someone making a detector at home. But lets say you own the patent on a coil design, you license that design for a royalty to another company who makes coils for you. Now hobbiests start making and selling those coils? If you dont defend your patent rights against the hobbiests then the company who paid you for your coil design license could rightly feel upset. They thought they were buying exclusive rights...now they have competitors who dont even have to pay royalties. So a company may feel they need to defend their legal position by taking hobbiests to court if they are selling even small numbers of products that are competing with the rightful licensee.

I have no idea what the case is referred to in this thread so these comments are generalisations.

Ideally patents would be written in a clear way so that you could hold up the patents that have expired and the ones that havn't and know what is infringing or not. I had a quick look through some of the patents on this site, and it would be easy to conclude that discrimination was invented twenty times and received a patent 20 times.

The sad thing is that almost no small/startup company from USA or Europe would deliberately infringe a patent if the claims were clear. They want to create something new and make some money, they dont want to play legal punch and judy. But I have met many people in business who feel that you are stupid if you have legal muscle and dont use it to limit competition in any way possible.

I cannot see how any group of people have a hope of avoiding being taken to court (and surviving without significant legal backing) if they result in product pushed into the market that may infringe, unless they work very hard to ensure they do not in any way clash with these cryptic patents. In fact you would be making a single core target to take to court, which is easier for the lawyers...they dont want to take lots of single people to court, a collective...great.

I can see that such a group could attempt to identify what IP is now patent expired, and what the patents currently enforced cover. Along with potentially applying for new group patents for group inventions, or just providing publication of ideas so that a patent application could in future be invalidated by pre-publication. Though the latter would not stop you being taken to court either....just give you a defense!

andyt,

Thanks for your post. I don't have issue with what you say. My background is also innovation and commercialisation. There is a way to avoid this mess in future. If you look on the QED thread from post 304. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...&highlight=qed there is more background for you. This is an unusual case.