Measuring phase angle shift

[WM6]

This one is correct!
Huuh!

Super ivconic here is order for two item (tested & calibrated).

[Max]

This one is correct!
Huuh!

Hi,
nice work! It's good for testing... but also for measures if it will work fine.

Hey... what about replacing the pesky analog meter with something digital ?

Any DVM will do the job... just use 200mA range on it. I think this will improve accurancy of measures of maybe 1-2% and give also much more easy readings...

If you use analog meter you have to find a 200mA one... and tune pot to get 180mA at 180°... not so easy requirement if you haven't one old analog meter ready there. If you use another kind (e.g. 100mA range) you need double the value you read on scale etc... or , in the worse case, you have to draw scale by hands...

I think is better using the DVM ... then find a good quality analog milliamp-meter if it's worth, like the ones used in obsolete analog meters, with large scale and mirror...

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Easiest way to calibrate it to 0 angle is to load same signal at both inputs. Than adjust scale to lowest position - zero.
DVM ..yes. I do have several scales, one of those realy huge! If it suits amperage than i will be very happy to use it. Degrees i will draw manually.
This is only first step. Second would be including this in some metal detector. TGSL for example !
Instead VU scale, somehow to convert that output and load some vco..audio vco...
Who knows, might be that TGSL turn to very serious detector after all...we will see.

[Max]

Easiest way to calibrate it to 0 angle is to load same signal at both inputs. Than adjust scale to lowest position - zero.
DVM ..yes. I do have several scales, one of those realy huge! If it suits amperage than i will be very happy to use it. Degrees i will draw manually.
This is only first step. Second would be including this in some metal detector. TGSL for example !
Instead VU scale, somehow to convert that output and load some vco..audio vco...
Who knows, might be that TGSL turn to very serious detector after all...we will see.

Hi,
yes... having the tone-id will be cool on TGS... and maybe this circuit could give ideas about that.

Purists will say that it's too old stuff... analog meter thing! But if it works why not using this !? That's what I think... even if I'd like a PIC there !

The circuit is simple... low cost... and maybe works also good for the purpose!

Just wire it up with a vu-meter IC (the led kind I mean) and let the output of it drive transfer gates of one 4066 to add or sub capacitance from some tone generator (e.g. 555) or let circuit drive directly a vco (e.g. 566) ...and voilla! TGS tone-id for the masses!

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Or...going further i am thinking how to make this more portable;
could 4007 part here been replaced with IRF7107,IRF7309 or simillar?
I am really novice in this things,need help here...
Must be that someone here know this better than me?

Hi,
the reason they used the 4007 is about speed: it's very fast inverter you can realize with them... and faster here means "more accurate" reading.

Fast for that time I mean...

About substitution/replacement ....uhm...

consider also that project is really old stuff... so what's timing there ?
I think that at 12V you can get 20ns propagation time with 4007... that's about the same of a TTL inverter gate... so why worry about the pesky 4007 inverter stuff today ?

Use an old TTL inverter IC like SN7406 (open collector) still easy to find and you'll get about 20ns (even less) you need without need to find the dang (really hard to find now) CD4007.

Only problem is that you have to supply the 7406 with 5V and , of course, the CA3130 too to have compatible levels (this is not a problem for ca3130).
Just use some 5v low power regulator... 78l05 or 2931z-05 etc

Cmos gates can be interfaced to output of 7406 stuff using a pull-up resistor of e.g. 1K.

Or you have to use TTL gates also for nand and d-type flip-flop (e.g. 7404+7400+7474) with all running at 5v.

Of course... you have to modify pcb for this!

Best regards,
Max

[WM6]

Or...going further i am thinking how to make this more portable;
could 4007 part here been replaced with IRF7107,IRF7309 or simillar?
I am really novice in this things,need help here...
Must be that someone here know this better than me?

Hi ivconic, if this obsolete 4007 is problem, you can find on web under name:

Simple Phase Meter Operates to 10MHz

an updated (year 2004) version of "same" schematic, developed by Intersil (1% accuracy)

Here:

www.intersil.com/data/an/an9637.pdf

and patented (United States Patent US5831423) with wide explanation here:

www.freepatentsonline.com/5831423.html

[Aziz]

This phase meter could be used for the mass production of the coils (balancing/tuning)! Its great!

[Unregistered]

Hi Ivconic,
Nice project, you have two extra nand gates in your CD4081. Tie pins 8 and 9 togeather and pins 12 and 13 togeather. This will give you two inverters and eliminate the CD4007.

Regards Mark

[Lake]

Phase Detector implementation for 16F84 used as a robot ear sensor.
Might be useful here too..
http://www.restena.lu/convict/Jeunes/PhaseSound.htm

[Max]

Hi Ivconic,
Nice project, you have two extra nand gates in your CD4081. Tie pins 8 and 9 togeather and pins 12 and 13 togeather. This will give you two inverters and eliminate the CD4007.

Regards Mark

Hi,
I disagree... if he use that cmos gates he will get bigger propagation time... so less accurancy...let him use the TTL instead. Much better!

The 4081 approach is good for quick and dirty testing... but not if you want descent accurancy I think.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

I did some fast pcb. Design is not some state of the art, but will do the job for fast testing. If this turns to work than i will draw better pcb...

Hi Ivconic,
why you used 2 x 4007 there ?

In 4007 there are 3 complementary pairs... which you can use as inverters... so one 4007 is more than enough.

BTW I found I have still 5 of them in my collection !

Anyway... any news about this stuff ?

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,

why you used 2 x 4007 there ?

In 4007 there are 3 complementary pairs... which you can use as inverters... so one 4007 is more than enough.

BTW I found I have still 5 of them in my collection !

Anyway... any news about this stuff ?

Kind regards,
Max

Never mind, i still have plenty of those in my scrap box. I am still making it. It will probably be ready tomorrow. Huh, all things are going very slowly at me. Few days ago i started forum!!!??? A lot of editorial job! Sheessh!
Now i undestand why Carl has not time to post much here! To much trivial jobs on maintaining forum! For time to time i feel pretty lost.
Initial ideal was to form a forum for metal detectors to cover former Yugoslavian republics, since we all here do have simillar languages and easilly can understand each other. I noticed descent number of people here pretty interested in this subject, yet not managed well with English language so they usually hesitate to post here. And idea seems to be very good.
But ...to muuuuuch joooob! To much splendid ideas and so few time to cover all. I havent slept for 10 hours in last 4 days...exhausted totally. I left workshop and my soldering iron...BTW what was "soldering iron" anyway!?!?
Sheeesh...
I think this, start, is most difficult, in time when forum evolve it will be much easier (who am i kiddn'??) So do grove nice hopes i will have more spare time in future to return to exact electronic...
OK...yes it is in process of making. When finished and tested i will report here results.
Regards Max!

[Max]

Never mind, i still have plenty of those in my scrap box. I am still making it. It will probably be ready tomorrow. Huh, all things are going very slowly at me. Few days ago i started forum!!!??? A lot of editorial job! Sheessh!
Now i undestand why Carl has not time to post much here! To much trivial jobs on maintaining forum! For time to time i feel pretty lost.
Initial ideal was to form a forum for metal detectors to cover former Yugoslavian republics, since we all here do have simillar languages and easilly can understand each other. I noticed descent number of people here pretty interested in this subject, yet not managed well with English language so they usually hesitate to post here. And idea seems to be very good.
But ...to muuuuuch joooob! To much splendid ideas and so few time to cover all. I havent slept for 10 hours in last 4 days...exhausted totally. I left workshop and my soldering iron...BTW what was "soldering iron" anyway!?!?
Sheeesh...
I think this, start, is most difficult, in time when forum evolve it will be much easier (who am i kiddn'??) So do grove nice hopes i will have more spare time in future to return to exact electronic...
OK...yes it is in process of making. When finished and tested i will report here results.
Regards Max!

Hi,
yes I understand you very well... lot of work can easy create those simptoms. I'm an expert now of this stuff... like all night watching a PC screen!

I think your idea is really cool and that many people will find it useful cause don't speak or write english to post here and discuss topics.

Sure it's a big challenge making such a thing... and require work and attention to keep the bad guys out.

Anyway, I hope you'll have good results with the phase meter... cause I had an idea to modify it but will be nice hearing it works good as is before doing other stuff.

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Finished and working, but rough. I expected scale to move from minimum to maximum - from left to right.Actually it is positioned to end right and if phase changes it falls to left.
Kind a problem here? I attached it to TGSL. "Ref." directly to TX and "signal in" to LF353 pin 7. and ground. Coin does not provoke major movements on scale. But tin box 10x10cm really shift phase much. Scale is falling from end right to almost end left. Of course this looks like totally unaccurate to measure phase angle. Another thing is led; randomly flashes to full light and than decays to no light at all. I didnt expected this to be very accurate; i planned to attach audio vco instead scale, but now this cant be done since there is constant voltage at output, meaning audio will produce constant sound and when phase changes, sound will decay...oposite than i need!?
I could do something else; to switch some fet (like J107) with that output voltage and further drive vco...possible it is, need more experiments.
To be continued...

[Max]

Finished and working, but rough. I expected scale to move from minimum to maximum - from left to right.Actually it is positioned to end right and if phase changes it falls to left.
Kind a problem here? I attached it to TGSL. "Ref." directly to TX and "signal in" to LF353 pin 7. and ground. Coin does not provoke major movements on scale. But tin box 10x10cm really shift phase much. Scale is falling from end right to almost end left. Of course this looks like totally unaccurate to measure phase angle. Another thing is led; randomly flashes to full light and than decays to no light at all. I didnt expected this to be very accurate; i planned to attach audio vco instead scale, but now this cant be done since there is constant voltage at output, meaning audio will produce constant sound and when phase changes, sound will decay...oposite than i need!?
I could do something else; to switch some fet (like J107) with that output voltage and further drive vco...possible it is, need more experiments.
To be continued...

Hi,
have you tryed putting a 2.2 or 4.7 uF cap at output ? this could maybe solve the abrupt behaviour that happens at strong phase changes.

Kind regards,
Max