IGSL

[der_fisherman]

Andy, regarding the problems between you and Ivconic.

I am a follower of the board from 3 years ago, and I understand the Ivconic subceptibilidad of the problems in time ago.

Might not be very technical in his way of explaining the details, but always shared their experiences and tests with the friends of the forum.

Not everyone do the same, just have a little patience,

regards

A good idea., thanks.

Andy

[Jerry]

Andy, regarding the problems between you and Ivconic.

I am a follower of the board from 3 years ago, and I understand the Ivconic subceptibilidad of the problems in time ago.

Might not be very technical in his way of explaining the details, but always shared their experiences and tests with the friends of the forum.

Not everyone do the same, just have a little patience,

regards

I would like to add a little.

Ivconic brings something special in ideas and enthusiasm to this or any forum that is simply not here during his absence. Think about it. When he came back after about a year of silence, he put the IGSL out there for anyone and everyone to copy and build. This forum went from nothing to what it is now in just a few months. Quite an accomplishment!

His ideas and willingness to report his experiments, good and bad is why the TGSL thread is one of the biggest if not the biggest on Geotech.

Geotech is a gathering place if ideas rather than a kit building forum. It is up to each individual to do his own homework.

Jerry

[Amalio]

Andy, regarding the problems between you and Ivconic.

I am a follower of the board from 3 years ago, and I understand the Ivconic subceptibilidad of the problems in time ago.

Might not be very technical in his way of explaining the details, but always shared their experiences and tests with the friends of the forum.

Not everyone do the same, just have a little patience,

regards

[Amalio]

Hi Andi

2 TGLS me, functioning well

IGLS model musketeer, if something more complicated in terms of coils, but try and see

I'm trying to cancellation, and starting to see differences TGLS.

I'm testing new Faraday cage, and not very happy with early results

[Wiltran]

IGSL

Hi Wiltran: Well I did that about a year ago and at the time USB cables were being experimented with so that is what I used on this one with good results.

The reason I made the graph in the first place was to try and figure out if there was a voltage or range of voltages inside of minimum null that I could use as a target and have the ground balance and discrimination work well without a lot of fussing with the scope.

As you can see, 20 degree phase shift leaves about 11 millivolts. At this point ground balance and discrimination work good. However, they still work with 27 degree phase shift at 4 millivolts.

Assume that 4 to 11 milivolts is a window in which GB and Disc both work, then it seem logical that you could split that range and set the null about 7 or 8 Mv. This would leave some wiggle room for movement as the epoxy cures and still be in a workable range.

That was the idea anyway but remember this is a sample of one coil and I may be just blowing smoke in the long run. This is why this test needs to be repeated on several coils.

Jerry

BTW: This was on a 20 Cm coil and was getting air test of 30 + cm with good discrimination while rejecting a ferrite bar.

Sounds like a good, logical approach, Jerry! Was there any noticeable change in detection depth between 4 and 11 MV?

[der_fisherman]

My IGLS:








[LEFT]DD255 X 137
RX168 X 0,25
TX45X0,55]

Looking good!!

Well done.

Andy

[der_fisherman]

Regarding the need to fully understand TGSL first....

In answer to Ivconic's recent post about TGSL being the same as IGSL for setups, adjustments and functionality

I don't want any animosity at all, but the only way I can succeed it would seem, is to first build a TGSL and learn how to set it up? Surely not........?

That is the way that some others here have clearly done, but probably over a longer period of time, a good school indeed, )I was hoping to avoid that.

My failure it would seem was to "jump" on the better machine (I believe the IGSL is better very strongly than TGSL), without building the TGSL first.

By the way, I have already read the TGSL forum fully through, that's how I found out about the IGSL in the first place.....

Also I have read Don's excellent documentation TGSL 101 many times, used it to build his coil former for example.....but me being a "hands on" person, that is only 50% of the problem....

I am a digital electronics person, not analogue......that is a problem for me and why I was hoping for some detailed assistance for the IGSL..........

I thought we worked together here and the clever ones wrote tips and tricks to help the beginners.....my bad!! Its certainly the way I work......

I will get it in the end seemingly without any help from you, it will just take me longer to get there, much longer......

Also, as of now, nobody has made any suggestions for the full anticlockwise setting/connection to the PCB of the 4 pots........

Thanks but no thanks Ivconic......

Do have a great day anyway.....

Regards

Andy

PS. I also see that possibly some people may be slightly put off building an IGSL, that is till Don or someone similar to Don, fills the void of knowledge for this excellent machine......hopefully Don can make an addendum to his TGSL 101 to cover the IGSL setups.

Eventually, once I have learnt it properly, I may even attempt to fill that void myself, if nobody else comes forward first, but please don't hold your breath, it could take a long, long time, next year even at the rate I am going..........

[Amalio]

Hello

First contact with GLIA,

Connect battery and first sound md

euro 20 cm

non-equilibrium non-zero even

Tips for balancing?

Start now with cancellation

[Amalio]

My IGLS:








[LEFT]DD255 X 137
RX168 X 0,25
TX45X0,55]

[Jerry]

Interesting graph Jerry, thanks. This is one that been puzzling me. Does nulling your coils to the minimum voltage represent the optimum coil location for good depth, and discrimination? or do you then move the coils again slightly to another location for best operation. I'm hearing different opinions from others on this board. Some say null for best ferrite rejection! PS, Ive been using a usb cable which was what I thought had pretty good results. Now Ivconic and others are recommending Belden cable. Does anyone know what application Belden cable is usually used for? Sometimes knowing this make it easier to obtain at cheaper prices. Like audio cables, mike cables etc.

Hi Wiltran: Well I did that about a year ago and at the time USB cables were being experimented with so that is what I used on this one with good results.

The reason I made the graph in the first place was to try and figure out if there was a voltage or range of voltages inside of minimum null that I could use as a target and have the ground balance and discrimination work well without a lot of fussing with the scope.

As you can see, 20 degree phase shift leaves about 11 millivolts. At this point ground balance and discrimination work good. However, they still work with 27 degree phase shift at 4 millivolts.

Assume that 4 to 11 milivolts is a window in which GB and Disc both work, then it seem logical that you could split that range and set the null about 7 or 8 Mv. This would leave some wiggle room for movement as the epoxy cures and still be in a workable range.

That was the idea anyway but remember this is a sample of one coil and I may be just blowing smoke in the long run. This is why this test needs to be repeated on several coils.

Jerry

BTW: This was on a 20 Cm coil and was getting air test of 30 + cm with good discrimination while rejecting a ferrite bar.

[ivconic]

"...That must be the most missleading comment that has ever been placed on any of Geotech's pages..."

This is malicious and very offending statement.
I am thinking now to quit all further contacts with you.
Yes, from now on i will disregard completely your appearance here. Sorry!
Wish you luck!
Regards!

[ivconic]

Here is what you asked:

"....before I set my coils in Epoxy resin, may I ask if you have written already a "setup procedure" for both the IGSL Coils and the electronics? If yes, can you point that out to me, or a weblink..."

What "setup" procedure?
What else?
What from above all already told here and on TGSL thread?
...
1) You make pcb and populate it with components,
2) Wire up all commands and speaker,
3) Make coil, null it, wire it up and finally fix it with some filler,
4) Hook up coil to pcb,
5) Switch it ON,
6) Adjust both GEBs to reject ferrite rod, old ceramic,hotrock and some natural mineral..

What else?
What else do you want?
What "setup procedure" more you want?

[ivconic]

"...That must be the most missleading comment that has ever been placed on any of Geotech's pages..."

????????????
On contrary - that was the most proper advice given to you here. Best you can't get.
IGSL and TGSL are practically the same design. IGSL = 2 x TGSL.
What correlate to TGSL - sure is correlating to IGSL.

Der fisherman, it is obvious that you are descent man, with unquestionable enthusiasm.
But you appeared here recently, right in the middle of IGSL debate , before this topic evolved to level when everything was about to be already explained. And you started to post to many premature questions, presumptions and hypothesis. All that without previous knowledge and experience that is available to everyone here on TGSL thread.
You are hurrying to much. Be patient and first read whole TGSL thread, page by page.
Every trivial detail is already very well explained there. No need to constantly repeat each one again and again here too? Why? What for? It's been said on the very first two pages here: IGSL is just another TGSL variation ... and nothing more.
First learn TGSL - than switch to IGSL.
...
Accusing me that i gave you most misleading comment that has ever been placed on any of Geotech's pages.....noooo, c'mon! That is a way to much!!
It is not my guilt because you are not well familiar with these two designs? Nor it is my obligation to tell you each small trivial detail; you may rethink and ask about.
...
I told you the truth. You asked - i answered. Truth. What else should i do?

What do you expected?
Detailed explanations with million more words?
Why should i do that?
It's all been said here on these forum already!
All you have to do - is to sit and list TGSL related topics and read to understand.
...
What i said to you is true. It is not "most misleading comment" !

[der_fisherman]

"....for a TGSL from Don (which is really good, but does it apply to IGSL?).."

Yes it does.

Gentlemen,

I need your help.

I asked recently for a setup procedure for the IGSL and was told that the TGSL version will do it!!! That must be the most missleading comment that has ever been placed on any of Geotech's pages.

It may be that if you have also first built and setup a TGSL, that an IGSL is just a step up, no big deal, but I have never Built a TGSL, so I do not have this experience and knowledge.

If we compare the two a little maybe it will become clearer for those of you WITH THE KNOWLEDGE!

TGSL EDU Vers.4 has 3 pots or trimmers (I could not tell from the schematic as they were only marked as "R", not as "P" or "Tr"......) and a switch ( Disc on or off) as controls and setups.

Now let us look at the IGSL, it has generally 4 Pots and 5 trimmers (or 6 pots and 3 trimmers depending upon how you build it!!)

Furthermore the component makie up is quite different for test points - there is no 101 chip on an IGSL!!! For example.

There is simply no way that I can apply TGSL setup infos to an IGSL.

Also, there is no info on the schematic as to which side of any pot or trimmer needs to be the side with low resistance when turned fully anticlockwise, this means that if I get it the wrong way round,I will be turning the pot in the wrong direction for the setup (because the person that will write the setup will have some knowledge allowing him to connect the pots correctly....and I won't know what I am doing wrong!!!!!

I am assuming that the SilverDog PCB has got the trimmers orientated correctly, am I right or wrong on that point?) or could that be a further problem?

I am sure that I am not alone.....and what about future builders as many will be attracted to this obviously excellent design.....

Therefore I am appealing to the "IGSL knowledgeable" people to help me and others by posting a step by step method of setting up the IGSL, (IGSL for Dummies?)
with no reference to any TGSL material. Also detailing the Potentiometer's correct orientation as well....thanks in advance.

Regards

Andy

PS. My IGSL has not made any sort of "PEEP" yet, no matter what I turn and twiddle!! I am gradually working through the schematic, and up to now, I have not found any errors of build, but up to now, everything appears to be completely correct, voltages are fine,
signals can be seen...... I think its just that pots and trimmers are not setup....

Also there are strong debates for and against a good null!! WHO AM I TO BELIEVE, HOW SHOULD I SET IT UP?

We have so many variables, it's no wonder it hasn't made a sound.... (by the way Silverdog, that was a loudspeaker that I was not sure about the identification of, that you kindly supplied in the Kit?)

[simonbaker]

Here are the results of some experimenting on phase vs coil null voltages last year. I only did this on one coil so I should probably repeat it sometime to see if the results agree.

You can see that as the null voltage drops towards zero the phase shift increases.

These reading were taken with the coils pushed further together from the zero null point.

Next time I do this I am going to show a complete curve for both inside and outside of the null point.

Jerry

That is food for thought. It makes me question my theory that the null signal is a pure magnetically coupled signal added to a non-magnetically coupled signal which is 90 deg out of phase with the TX signal.

For comparison, below is a graph of voltage vs phase when you sum a signal with another one that is 90 degrees offset.

I chose .4 mV PP for the size of the small signal that is 90 deg shifted. The signal at zero deg phase I varied in PP magnitude from 0 to 30 mV. I thought this might be typical of the coil Jerry was playing with.

My theory has been that the RX null signal consists of a variable (depending on position of coils) signal that is 0 or 180 degrees relative to the TX signal, added to a small "non-magnetically" coupled signal that is constant but approx 90 degrees relative to the TX signal.

Notice how my graph is "steeper" than Jerry's measured data. This suggests the null phase may be more complex than the sum of a variable signal plus a constant signal. Or could some scaling factor explain it?

I will keep thinking about possible models that might produce a more shallow curve like Jerry's data.

-SB