TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[Max]

Hello Frends.

Some warning : The goldy rev. 3.2 gives more problems in piking up more external noise than the earlier versions, don't know why (yet) .
So if you want to make a TSGL (same as goldy) then make the version Ivica has maild in this forum, this version is working good.

Sorry !

Ap

Hi Ap,
thanks for the info. I'll keep in mind.

Best regards,
Max

[ApBerg]

Goldy

Hello Frends.

Some warning : The goldy rev. 3.2 gives more problems in piking up more external noise than the earlier versions, don't know why (yet) .
So if you want to make a TSGL (same as goldy) then make the version Ivica has maild in this forum, this version is working good.

Sorry !

Ap

[Max]

Max i think this is very correct, you posted. Come to think again; maybe "narrowing" range helped me to avoid falses completely? How about that?
Still, my device is detecting silver and gold same as was earlier...So it seems it is "wide" enough?

Hi Ivconic,
nice to hear you made also progress on osc section using square wave... the power delivered is more that way that a standard sinus but could be problems related to multifrequency jitters... anyway I'd like to see more news by you about that....and how it performs for real on soil.

About noise and disc pot... disc intervals ...I agree with you: I noticed that moving the disc pot (in TGS also moving the notch pot even with notch disabled) is possible finding "hot spots" where the detector is more and more unstable than e.g. at min disc setting.

All right about that, and maybe yes the reduced disc range (but still good as I see your writing) help reducing also this kind of problems.

I think that at particular phase shifts the "intermodulations" peaks sums and you can lost into troubles with erratic or similar to erratic behaviour....bleeping, I mean, at speaker: comparators start commutating easy.

I have to made some other tests about 220-330pF BTW at which capacitance value you run your very good performant TGSL with still good disc ?

I found good 220pF but 330pF gave me some problems yesterday.

Best regards,
Max

[ivconic]

I might be bugging here with dozen posts in a minute; but i will say most important thing now, and than shut up for longer period; main thing is.....and i will repeat; MAIN THING IS ....I already performed several tests with my devices on the GROUND, on real soil, outdoor, in different conditions, under different temperatures....and those are working PERFECT for real. This is most important thing to know. "Bench" testing means NOTHING to me. I can only respect outdoor testing.....Better to play some good RPG on my pC than some simulator...
That was all from me friends...Good bye!

[ivconic]

About square signals...i am planing to change main oscillator signal from sinus to square also. Good idea came from Dutch friends, adjustable 555 oscilator...
To be more honest... I already made it, and it is working pretty descent.
No that good as standard TGSL, but pretty good. Need some changes more to work perfect. Actually, these days i am working mostly on that...

[ivconic]

Hi,

I've simulated both ways at 3 pot positions: 0.1, 0.3 and 1

Seems the 100pF way have much more degrees of range... but also 330pF give some adj maybe it's enough to disc foil.

Look... I'm in a hurry now.

Kind regards,
Max

Max i think this is very correct, you posted. Come to think again; maybe "narrowing" range helped me to avoid falses completely? How about that?
Still, my device is detecting silver and gold same as was earlier...So it seems it is "wide" enough?

[ivconic]

Huh! I forgot main thing! Geo since you are coming to Serbia on November the 2 ...you can visit me and see yourself all i been talked about here. I dont need to repeat that you are very welcomed here!
Regards!

[ivconic]

Hi Ivica.

Most basic for me is to understand how and why it work. I want to trace the signal and to see if it is Ok or not. If it is wrong i am looking to solve the problem. But here we are 4....5 persons with TGS where all detectors works but with different signal. What to see???? Is the sinus right, or the square??. For me this is the worst. I don't like a detector that work very good.... perfect but "from mistake". Today when i will finish my work i will give it a try again. Who knows......... Maybe Max find the right signal.... sinus or square
My regards

Geo i do understand your points, simply, those are same as mine. If i dodnt want to fully understand how this works, than i would shut up,be happy with results i gained and didnt came here to talk....
Funny thing is that i have now 11 devices working perfectly "from mistake"????? How this should be explained? Never mind. Forget it.
Yes Max is right , we should establish first; what kind of signal p 1. must have? Sinus or square. Majority here adopted sinus. OK, i have toaccept this as reallity...I'll continue to experiment further...If some new things discovered i'll post here...

[Max]

Hi,
I've simulated both ways at 3 pot positions: 0.1, 0.3 and 1

Seems the 100pF way have much more degrees of range... but also 330pF give some adj maybe it's enough to disc foil.

Look... I'm in a hurry now.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi,
c'mon guys... be quiet...

I think that we have to avoid jokes for now and focus to the problem only... and the problem is:

is the signal at pin1 of 353 required to be sinus shaped ?

I think so... but that's my personal opinion... from my understanding of the disc syncro system of TGS (like other detectors too by Tesoro expecially BandidoII) it's required having an increasing signal at that point cause that way you can move further or backward the disc sample pulse.

That's what I get in BandidoII for real, measuring with scope I mean.

The simulator can solve all our problems with TGS !? Of course, NOT.

It's impossible simulate all conditions that could happen in the "real" circuit on PCB... sockets and all the number of things that have to do with real assembly of board is not just like using the plain schematic.

I've just made some simulations to show why the LF353 goes into saturation so easy with higher cap value: reactance

But there are more things... for example yesterday I've simulated the 50Kohm influence as feedback resistor... and simulator showed a good shaped near-to-sinus wave with 100pF... but early in this morning I've made the real test and yes... there is a similar to sinus wave... but also some small ringing on one part of wave that there isn't in simulation. That explain everything... no simulation is perfect, no simulation parameter list is "complete" -> there's always a gap between simulated things and real signals from pcb.

About the 220pF (or 330pf) it works about sens like Ivconic stated... I've not tested disc effects using that mod on the real circuit... so I cannot say if it still works on the PCB... I've made that simulation that say the disc sample will happen always at same time (phase shift) even moving the pot: on this I think simulation is right... cause I was thinking the same before made that on LTspice... just using my understanding of circuit.

I'll check this too on real board to say if it still works... and if so to understand why: we have also consider that a comparator needs few uV differences at inputs to work... so even a few angles edge of "square" wave could be enough to move forward of few degrees... so acting still as disc.

Infact... if you look at simulation you see vertical edges (without zoom )... and all we know here that's impossible having that on "real circuits"...so all depends on how much is that inclination of the edge.

We have just to test and see on PCB... if data from simulation match or not our measures.

Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Ivica.
Most basic for me is to understand how and why it work. I want to trace the signal and to see if it is Ok or not. If it is wrong i am looking to solve the problem. But here we are 4....5 persons with TGS where all detectors works but with different signal. What to see???? Is the sinus right, or the square??. For me this is the worst. I don't like a detector that work very good.... perfect but "from mistake". Today when i will finish my work i will give it a try again. Who knows......... Maybe Max find the right signal.... sinus or square
My regards

Thanks Geo. This is exactly my point. There is a deliberately "stubborn" attitude here in trying to really understand the problem. Yes, it does appear to be working "from mistake" (as you say) but the worrying thing is the inconsistency.
Good luck, and I hope you solve the mystery soon.

[Geo]

I atach again the form of signal that yesterday i took from TGS. The upper signal is from pin1 of LF353 (8V p-p) and the other at the out of RX Ampl (LF353 pin7????? i dont remember, 150mv p-p). Scope was synchronised with channel2. I attach one file more with the coins that always i use for tests

[Geo]

If this does matter than i really dont know!? But i straighten up previous signal with 220-330pF and gained clear square. Is there any benefit from that, again i dont know. I do know my TGSL works like a hell, and that is only matter. Thats why i posted all those in details, so others can check and maybe gain same results as mine or even better. Further others can notice some mistakes and let me know. Mutual benefits. Common experience is much better than single one. If i was smartest man here i would never come and ask for second opinion...
Geo just try it and see. If no benefit, at least you will know for sure.
Best regards!

Hi Ivica.
Most basic for me is to understand how and why it work. I want to trace the signal and to see if it is Ok or not. If it is wrong i am looking to solve the problem. But here we are 4....5 persons with TGS where all detectors works but with different signal. What to see???? Is the sinus right, or the square??. For me this is the worst. I don't like a detector that work very good.... perfect but "from mistake". Today when i will finish my work i will give it a try again. Who knows......... Maybe Max find the right signal.... sinus or square
My regards

[ivconic]

"...when you are trying to help someone, but they are not listening. Porkluvr and I are using simulation (and also Max) to assist you with this problem. However, you do not seem to believe the simulation results. That's all it means. There is no disrespect meant by anyone here.
Yes - it is true - I do not intend to build the TGSL, but I fully understand how it works. It is a classic double-differentiating design. There's no mystery here.
I am very busy at the moment with some other projects - not known about here - and can only pop in from time to time...."

No, i understood it very well. PorkLuvr suggested simulator and i accepted. I am still using it. I do not trust it - yes, it is true. Why? Cose it showed one result and practicing primer showed another....many times, not only once.
Disrespect.....or respect....really doesnt matter, but showing it in public it is matter much!
You fully understand how it works....i belevie yes! On principle bases yes! In details....i dont think so! There is no mistery here....yes i agree - no mistery...but details,details,details...you are not awared of every detail here....neither than me, to tell you the truth. But you are relying your attitude on principles you are knowing (it seems) very well, and further you are risking to adopt prejudices, generally speaking.
Each of Tesoro designs is story of its own, no matter if those are pretty simillar....If you dont trust this, than you are not informed well. Until try and build it yourself....i really dont know how to close this up, more to you. Never mind. I have my reasons not to relly on simulator here. And my attitude on this should not be subject to joke about..
PorkLuvr has right to compare me to a horse from that story, you dont!
Anyway...it is stupid to continue with this any more....I'll stop. What has been posted here .....is posted...no more from me....I'll stick strictly to subject here from now on. Subject is TGS...

[Qiaozhi]

Wise and funny guys here!?
Quiaozhi i respected you so far. Right now i am reconsidering that.
So many suggestions and tips from you but so less benefits from those.
It is easy to stand aside, ocassionally "drop" some "wide" suggestion and tip...When things oposite your attitude than you showing some pictures and simillar... I understood this place as place when i can talk seriously with people with which i have common interest.If sometimes we dont agree, than i expect to explore problem in details and find spots of disagreement...
If you are tired of taking seriouslu part in here, or dont want to waste your precious time with us here, fine. But please dont act like a wise guy.Sooner or later you'll make mistake...
PorkLuvr's remark about "horse..." wasnt offended me at all. I understood it as a joke. Your post is offending me and i can not take it as a joke.
Anyway like i said, so less benefits from your posts here.Plain academic rethoric. Any "greenhorn" can google arround the .net and find "deep" scientific explanations...blah..blah...and simillar.
But i still havent saw any of your handmades (this doesnt mean that i want to see those here)...
Except few rare members here i can only take seriously Max,Geo and my Dutch friends cose i saw their work in practice,efforts,problematics...
That is what i do respect for real. Plain academic rethorics not!
Further i can take jokes and critics only from them, but not from person with which i do not correlate at all....
Pleas stay away of peaking me further.
Regards!

Ivconic - you have totally misunderstood my "joke", and the previous one by Porkluvr. "You can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink" is a common reference that is used when you are trying to help someone, but they are not listening. Porkluvr and I are using simulation (and also Max) to assist you with this problem. However, you do not seem to believe the simulation results. That's all it means. There is no disrespect meant by anyone here.

Yes - it is true - I do not intend to build the TGSL, but I fully understand how it works. It is a classic double-differentiating design. There's no mystery here.

I am very busy at the moment with some other projects - not known about here - and can only pop in from time to time.