TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[nakky]

To Tik Tak

What?

You are still not there,you have a long way to go Experiment.Grt Nakky.

[tiktak]

hi

Hi,
Max.
This question:
Hi,
Max.
Thanks again!My mistake!

But can you tell me what is this 9X8 and 12X10 in cm-s?
Are they DD?

I will use 0,25 without the varnish!

Which is yours 22 DD?

Look at this DD11 why RX have less inductance and resistance from TX?
Shouldn't they be reverced?This DD 11 in inch must mean 27cm?/1 inch=2,5cm/

And I buy housing from a friend!And if you wanna I will send you a couple buy the post!I own you much,so no problem.
Just send me e-mail with your addres.I have payed 2,5 euro for this one!There are 32 and 38!But I now that you are interested in this 28 !Right!
I wanna make this 25 but still dont now how much turns???
Cant find cheep and good multimeter all are expensive!
So if you tell me how much turns I will be able to make good coil with what I have!
Thanks

[nelson]

Today i measure inductance of my first 22 cms coil, with a professional inductance meter and this shows the following:

TX 6.025 mH RX 7.010 mH

With a multimiter

TX 3.8 RX 4.6 mH

Problem is that 3.8 and 4.6 values are ok for good deep, but out of range and also frequency is 19.2 Khz, not 14.Khz. But if you consider that values taken wit the pro inductance, this are fine to.
So if i measure my second coil, that by now is not working good, this shows:

With pro inductance meter

TX 8.6 mH RX 9.1 mH

With multimiter

TX 5.9 mH RX 6.4 mH

This is very confising, cause if you see, the second coil fits a frequency of 13.8 Khz, very close to the original but not working good and the good coil that is running at 19.2 Khz, works very good.

What do you think?

Regards

Nelson

Well Max, very good explanation and interesting point to talk about.
My first coil that was tested today, is working at 19.2 Khz, and i can tell you that is finding coins and one silver ring with no problems. Lots of coins, discrimination was set to catch at copper level (btw 1/2 to 3/4 of pot) and almost everything i found today were coins and some aluminium bottles cups. About pulltabs, no problem, the were not detected,geb is working just fine. I can tell you that my TGS is much much betther than ace 250. If i new this befere i ll never got ace 250, a nice machine, but i recognize is it only for beginers. I know now that it can be used has a backup detector, but for more serius searching i for shure get my TGS.
Today i search in a perimeter searshed before with the ace 250 and i got more coins at more deep too.
So i think that TGS can work very good at 19.2 Khz.
I also connect the 22 cms coil, but is working bad, detection for 11 mm coin at only 8 to 12 cms, not good. Sound while detecting not strong and i detect some kind of fading while i pass the coin in front of my coil, so may be i need to reverse leads on rx coil. This coil is well nulling with my tester and also i got good impedance and inductance values.
The coil used today with results posted here, is 22 cms diameter, 4.6 mH RX and 3.8 mH TX, resistance 21.8 and 21.4 ohms.

More about my test later.

Thanks and best regards Max

Nelson

[tiktak]

To nakky

What?

[nakky]

TO TIK TAK

HI,
MAX.
Its look like I haven't understand you buy former I mean the thing that I wind the windings on and according to your last post you mean coil housing???
Please make this clear too.
I now that its stupid but I wanna be well prepared.And make no or minimum mistakes!
Thanks

TIK TAK what do you think? NO MISTAKES,this is not all I made,your not there! Grt Nakky

[nelson]

Well Max, very good explanation and interesting point to talk about.
My first coil that was tested today, is working at 19.2 Khz, and i can tell you that is finding coins and one silver ring with no problems. Lots of coins, discrimination was set to catch at copper level (btw 1/2 to 3/4 of pot) and almost everything i found today were coins and some aluminium bottles cups. About pulltabs, no problem, the were not detected,geb is working just fine. I can tell you that my TGS is much much betther than ace 250. If i new this befere i ll never got ace 250, a nice machine, but i recognize is it only for beginers. I know now that it can be used has a backup detector, but for more serius searching i for shure get my TGS.
Today i search in a perimeter searshed before with the ace 250 and i got more coins at more deep too.
So i think that TGS can work very good at 19.2 Khz.
I also connect the 22 cms coil, but is working bad, detection for 11 mm coin at only 8 to 12 cms, not good. Sound while detecting not strong and i detect some kind of fading while i pass the coin in front of my coil, so may be i need to reverse leads on rx coil. This coil is well nulling with my tester and also i got good impedance and inductance values.
The coil used today with results posted here, is 22 cms diameter, 4.6 mH RX and 3.8 mH TX, resistance 21.8 and 21.4 ohms.

More about my test later.

Thanks and best regards Max

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
remember now I have to answer your question !

" mean, if i set up the detector for 14 Khz i know i m on the correct performance, but if for example change the frequency to run it at 20 khz, will performance by reduced or not?"

Very good question.

If you run it out-frequency you could gain or lose.
Lets explain.
If you use e.g. a too lower frequency you'll have surely problems.
Example : TX f = 5Khz
your voltage converter run at f/2 = 2.5KHz

No way. You'll lose all your negative rail voltage that way. f too low.

Example : f=10Khz
Could work fine. BandidoII runs at 10KHz...
problem is always related to voltage converter output... but I think you'll get something from -2V to -2.5V that way and maybe changing some IC for less wasting current devices (e.g. TLC2262, MC33178 and the like).
Could work, you'll have maybe less performance cause of less voltage on coil... but could work even good.

Much better I think at 12KHz or 12.5Khz... very good freq. here. (have to try ).

Now more f
Example : 20Khz... uhm
You don't have problems on voltage converter that way (runs at 10Khz) BUT... 20Khz on the TX coil... uhm far above expected frequency e.g. for preamp up... maybe is better using the 5pF cap that time on LF353.

But it could work.

The big question is why changing freq ???

ANSWER ARE: SKIN EFFECT AND SMALL TARGETS

Higher frequencies are good for small items detection... cause even small things develop much eddy currents at higher frequencies... BUT there is a BIG (or depends... could be ENORMOUS) problem... FOIL.

FOIL IS ADDICTED TO HIGHER FREQS... also your shield would develop much more eddy currents at higher freqs... but that's not the real problem... I think that here isn't worth using e.g. 20KHz at tx osc... pay now or pay later on the search field...

But if you have clear and "easy soil" searchfield... why not.
Some soils are less easy at higher freqs... I know very well.

You have to consider also that GSabre parts are designed to run at that 14Khz ...of course can work at other freqs... but you can pay somewhere in the circuit if don't mod. some bit parts. Critical parts are preamp, sampler/integrators and voltage converter.

I think that good range to try freq. mods is 14KHz +/- 2.5Khz

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Yes.
But what for my previous question?

Which question ?

[Max]

BTW where do you buy these housings ?
If you can tell here... otherwise nevermind.

I said that for 1cm coins would be good trying 25cm diameter DD coil... so your housing seems good for that if you want try.

Kind regards,
Max

[tiktak]

Hi

Yes.
But what for my previous question?

[Max]

HI,
MAX.
Its look like I haven't understand you buy former I mean the thing that I wind the windings on and according to your last post you mean coil housing???
Please make this clear too.
I now that its stupid but I wanna be well prepared.And make no or minimum mistakes!
Thanks

Hi tiktak,
my friend what a confusion !

Coil housing... is coil housing, you need it to seal the coil... connect to the pole... etc mechanical stuff.

Coil housing is not the FORMER.

FORMER IS THE FORMER.

I mean... if I say I've used 19cm diameter former I mean something round (nails pattern, L-hooks on a wood table, a coke-can...well ehm it's not 19cms but is round...) to wound the coil... just this.

Former is something upon which you wound wire. Nothing else.

Then you shape your wound as a D... null etc... then seal everything in the Coil Housing.

It's clear now ?

Kind regards,
Max

[tiktak]

hi

HI,
MAX.
Its look like I haven't understand you buy former I mean the thing that I wind the windings on and according to your last post you mean coil housing???
Please make this clear too.
I now that its stupid but I wanna be well prepared.And make no or minimum mistakes!
Thanks

[Max]

Thanks Max
Ok, yes you are rigth, i was thinking on doing a smaller coil like a 16 cm one. I also have modified a comercial nails finder to run like a pinpointer, wich let me found a 11 mm coin at about 2 cms deep.
About no motion detector, yes, this TGS i think will do the job for getting the targer and for fine detection i ll use my pinponter. Also on my arsenal i m planing to carry my Clone PI MD. For this detector i m bulding a smaller coil to detect the smallest nugget i can. Who knows, if all this work, i ll be more satisfy of my homebrew projects.
One more question i forgot to ask. Changing the frequency by changing the inductance on tx coil, how is the tolerence of frequency range. I mean, if i set up the detector for 14 Khz i know i m on the correct performance, but if for example change the frequency to run it at 20 khz, will performance by reduced or not?

Best regards

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
remember now I have to answer your question !

" mean, if i set up the detector for 14 Khz i know i m on the correct performance, but if for example change the frequency to run it at 20 khz, will performance by reduced or not?"

Very good question.

If you run it out-frequency you could gain or lose.
Lets explain.
If you use e.g. a too lower frequency you'll have surely problems.
Example : TX f = 5Khz
your voltage converter run at f/2 = 2.5KHz

No way. You'll lose all your negative rail voltage that way. f too low.

Example : f=10Khz
Could work fine. BandidoII runs at 10KHz...
problem is always related to voltage converter output... but I think you'll get something from -2V to -2.5V that way and maybe changing some IC for less wasting current devices (e.g. TLC2262, MC33178 and the like).
Could work, you'll have maybe less performance cause of less voltage on coil... but could work even good.

Much better I think at 12KHz or 12.5Khz... very good freq. here. (have to try ).

Now more f
Example : 20Khz... uhm
You don't have problems on voltage converter that way (runs at 10Khz) BUT... 20Khz on the TX coil... uhm far above expected frequency e.g. for preamp up... maybe is better using the 5pF cap that time on LF353.

But it could work.

The big question is why changing freq ???

ANSWER ARE: SKIN EFFECT AND SMALL TARGETS

Higher frequencies are good for small items detection... cause even small things develop much eddy currents at higher frequencies... BUT there is a BIG (or depends... could be ENORMOUS) problem... FOIL.

FOIL IS ADDICTED TO HIGHER FREQS... also your shield would develop much more eddy currents at higher freqs... but that's not the real problem... I think that here isn't worth using e.g. 20KHz at tx osc... pay now or pay later on the search field...

But if you have clear and "easy soil" searchfield... why not.
Some soils are less easy at higher freqs... I know very well.

You have to consider also that GSabre parts are designed to run at that 14Khz ...of course can work at other freqs... but you can pay somewhere in the circuit if don't mod. some bit parts. Critical parts are preamp, sampler/integrators and voltage converter.

I think that good range to try freq. mods is 14KHz +/- 2.5Khz

Best regards,
Max

[tiktak]

Hi,
Max.
Thanks again!My mistake!

But can you tell me what is this 9X8 and 12X10 in cm-s?
Are they DD?

I will use 0,25 without the varnish!

Which is yours 22 DD?

Look at this DD11 why RX have less inductance and resistance from TX?
Shouldn't they be reverced?This DD 11 in inch must mean 27cm?/1 inch=2,5cm/

[Max]

Hi,
Max.
I will buy tomorrow the parts for this circuit and plan to build it soon!
And also will search for some multimeter that have frequency reading!/and that I can aford/

And will contact you again!Please calculate the number of turns for this DD25cm coil that I asked you when have some free time!

p.s.I saw that you advice someone to try:

For DD you could try:
RX 130 turns suitable former to get a 22cm halve
TX 120 turns idem
wire 0.30 mm (free of varnish)

what is this DD 40?/22cm halve?/
I will check again the TGS theme to see what is the inductance for its coil!

DD40 ??? No, no.
I made DD22. "22cm halve" means one "half" of coil, D shaped... so the wounding of tx coil or rx coil.

Not that the former is 22cm diameter (is about 19cm)... or other things.

0.30 without varnish is too far from what you need.
I've used but changed caps on bandidoII to get it work good.
Then you have to use 0.25mm (30AWG) , without varnish, to avoid other troubles.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

in this link that you give there is no GS!!!

Hi,
of course there isn't.

These are tesoro's coils data. All uMax series coils fit GoldenSabre needs.

Do you see 9x8... well GoldenSabre was selled with that kind of coil.
Of course you can mount a concentric round e.g. the 8'' brown.
The big DD11'' too even if it has a bit different values, of course.

TX inductance is about 5.7 mH, RX a bit more 6.2 mH for all them.

Look also at resistances... 17. something is the minumum.

All these you can use on GoldenSabre.
Some are concentric coplanar (most of them)
That are more difficault to do respect to DD coils.

Anyway, you have to match about those inductances values to get it work good, with any kind of coil (DD, concentric coplanar, OO, whatever...).

Green are good values for GSabre. (LOBO used other values as standard, run on different frequencies)

Kind regards,
Max