TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[eclipse]

Great, Ivconic this is remarcable detection and discrimiantion abilities.
Not to mention the head is not "lift me if you can" - 15" and up dia.
Who cares it's an "old" project??

[Esteban]

2. Phase, Air test with 2cm silver coin.. (41 to 46cm clear detection, Disc Mode)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxUOcCQBqU4

Ivconic, very good! Wich is the detection depth is normal soil, not very mineralized?

Regards

Esteban

[ivconic]

Testing TGSL in 2 phases...

2. Phase, Air test with 2cm silver coin.. (41 to 46cm clear detection, Disc Mode)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxUOcCQBqU4

[ivconic]

Testing in 2 phases

1. Phase;
TGSL testing Disc behavior...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI_U-0lzmp8

[maxbiri]

Hi Max

If data are correct i'm doing big mistake in my lobo project.
At this point i need understanding better the coil for lobo before going on with project.

Bye Max

[Max]

Hi Max

I presume that data about lobo's tx and rx are reversed, not sure of course.

Bye Max

Hi,
I think they are eaxct , instead.

The table is from this page, I think all measures made by Carl years ago:

http://geotech.thunting.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=metdet&file=info/coils/index.dat

PS: Lobo's coils are different from TGS and BandidoII

Kind regards,
Max

[maxbiri]

Hi Max

I presume that data about lobo's tx and rx are reversed, not sure of course.

Bye Max

[Max]

Hi Max , I read your response , Thank-You . Maybe at the Tesoro factory they just "Tightly wind 100 turns for the TX , measure the dc resistance and then "Tightly wind 110 turns for the RX , measure the dc resistance , Glue it , throw it on the truck , and someone "SCREAMS".... "SHIP-IT"......I know they have Factory Specifications , that are very strict +, - 1% maybe ???? Maybe not a Self-Resonance like you said , but definitely a milli-henry value that must be very strict. I am researching everything again on coils to learn all I can , and also to re-fresh my memory , because I plan to post the "Final Tesoro Golden Sabre Lite-1265". Search-Coil information Later !!!!........Eugene

Hi,
some are very strict... some instead are weak about inductance matching... I think depends on construction... if you always use about 100turns of same wire, same way it's very probable you'll get about same inductance.

This doesn't mean you look for a particular inductance but that you end up with that value always cause you made all coils the same way.

I think their major concern is nulling and phase shift, cause inductance value depends on how many turns they put in former, always same number.

Kind regards,
Max

[amtech2005]

TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

SimonBaker , I will look for the dimenension's soon . And of course there are "Standard's" or Specifications to follow , PCB dimensions in relation to Integrated circuit size , so the holes line up correctly and the "through-hole" holes are drilled to proper size. "Through-Hole-Holes" ??.....Seriously , It is in the software , that is why we take it for granted , and do not really worry about it. I am just so very happy that 95% of all the projects on the Geotech Forum are "Through Hole Projects" and not "SMT"-Surface Mount. But you know that is going to change someday .... maybe soon , when Multiple "Pic Chips" and "DSP" microprocessors are required for Pulse Induction with Discrimination , and when "Ground Imaging Devices " are DESIGNED and BUILT right here on this Geotech Forum !!!!! Look how we have advanced here in just a few years .......Thanks...........Eugene

[amtech2005]

TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

Hi Max , I read your response , Thank-You . Maybe at the Tesoro factory they just "Tightly wind 100 turns for the TX , measure the dc resistance and then "Tightly wind 110 turns for the RX , measure the dc resistance , Glue it , throw it on the truck , and someone "SCREAMS".... "SHIP-IT"......I know they have Factory Specifications , that are very strict +, - 1% maybe ???? Maybe not a Self-Resonance like you said , but definitely a milli-henry value that must be very strict. I am researching everything again on coils to learn all I can , and also to re-fresh my memory , because I plan to post the "Final Tesoro Golden Sabre Lite-1265". Search-Coil information Later !!!!........Eugene

[simonbaker]

Simonbaker , Do you have Sprint Layout 5.0 ??? It would be very helpfull if you did !!! All the demensions you need are posted , either on this thread or from the .LAY file . I will try to find what you need and post what I can tommorrow , I hope ?? I have been "Re-Reading" this whole "Tesoro Golden Sabre" thread again , checking all the coils and coil-specs. that were posted. Yes , so far there are about 3 to 4 coils that were tested and called a "Final-coil-Design" ....But this is a Huge Thread with 98 pages and almost 2,500 posts and 1,200 pictures of Clint Eastwood ..This Golden Sabre thread was a "Work in Progress" for over a year and has a "Goldmine of information" ... I am not done searching yet , for a couple of questions I need to get answered , about Tesoro's 8 inch , concentric coil 'Resonance"...............Eugene

Yes I have the Sprint Layout and that should do the trick. But maybe someone can only use the GIF. Also it is good to know dimensions for doublechecking, it is so easy to make mistakes...

Max, very interesting discussion on Tesoro coils and design. Does anyone have an opinion on designs using coil in oscillator like Tesoro vs. driving resonant coil (like Aziz)?

[Max]

MAX , Thanks again for your fast Response . I think you know what I am trying to say . Tesoro Makes about 5 to 6 different types of search coils search-coil's. And each will fit more than one Metal Detector Model !! The "Standard" 8 inch concentric , and I posted a tiny photo , fits ALL Bandido's , All the Sabre Model's and a few assorted other model's . It has factory set parameters of 1. DC resistance 2. Resonant frequency 3. Inductance in Millihenry's. What I do not understand is this one 8 inch "coil model" works good on the 10 khz Bandido and also works good on a Golden Sabre 12 khz or even a 15 khz Golden Sabre Plus !!! My question is 1. When you inject a vlf signal and it does not match the coils resonance 1. ARE YOU CREATING HARMONICS ???. 2. Are you causing PHASE DISTORTIONS ON THE RX SIDE OF THE COIL which will effect THE ACCURACY of the Discrimination circuit , or even cause more noise Problems. If Tesoro manufactures a special search coil for each of the metal detector model's they manufacture , Then all the above Questions are not important. Maybe when Tesoro uses one coil for "ALL MODELS" it is "TESORO BBS TECHNOLOGY" or "TESORO HARMONIC BBS"...So it seems like Tesoro's resonance on the coils is 14.6 to 14.7 khz and the factory will tell us that a detector model has an operating frequency of 12 khz.....I am still researching this subject...Also , there is a "Mars" , Pennsylvania !!!!............Opininions are welcome again.....Take Care............Eugene

Hi,
well no... the Tesoro's coils have no tuned resonance peak at VLF range, they have self resonance as any coil has but , I mean, uMax coils have no tuning capacitor in a tank... inside housing... like other models have , other brand have (some White's models as example).

You actually don't inject the VLF signal in the coil, but the coil is part of the TX oscillator, a Colpitts one in Tesoro's with some variants from e.g. Bandido to TGS but really close in various models of that years.

When the coil is connected to the MD it become part of tuned circuit in the oscillator, and different caps in the "tank" make oscillator runs on a particular frequency. In Bandido you have 10Khz cause of that 2 caps , different from TGS, so ... if you replace the 2 caps in bandido you'll get same 14.7Khz of TGS with same coil.

The Tesoro's coils are nothing special, no harmonic design: they must suit tx and rx needs on fundamental frequency, that's it. To simplify , they must not follow even strictly a "particular" fundamental frequency, but nulling voltage and a required (no metal) tx/rx phase shift.

The results is that the same coil could run a different frequencies on different MDs of their uMax series... but with some combinations better than others: some type of MDs are more stable, though similar about circuits/schematic, also components selection is important in these differences.

The fact some coils allow lower frequencies is a sideeffect, happens with some larger ones expecially... that's cause of increased induction due to the larger area coverage and bad calibration of inductance at tuning procedure. That make me think their tuning procedure must be quite simple like using a multimeter or a scope for finding the required null, then check phase but paying less care on inductances and thus resulting in a lowered frequency on detector.

As you know, many successful TGS coils were made using out of spec inductance value and paying attention to dc series resistance and frequency...and phase: that means inductance is not primary key factor in successful coil cloning about TGS and other tesoro's if the end frequency is as expected...e.g. for TGS around 14.5Khz.

So why one have to match 14.6-14.7Khz with TX oscillator on TGS ?

The frequency range is important too when thinking at disc: some disc/geb features behave different at different frequencies... cause phase control networks are designed to work at nominal frequencies... this is the cause of not really decent performances reported, about disc, with larger tesoro coils....

That mean... you could gain in depth but lose about disc selectivity and , of course, pinpointing. (not to talk about ground influence... it's another topic also)

Kind regards,
Max

[amtech2005]

TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

MAX , Thanks again for your fast Response . I think you know what I am trying to say . Tesoro Makes about 5 to 6 different types of search coils search-coil's. And each will fit more than one Metal Detector Model !! The "Standard" 8 inch concentric , and I posted a tiny photo , fits ALL Bandido's , All the Sabre Model's and a few assorted other model's . It has factory set parameters of 1. DC resistance 2. Resonant frequency 3. Inductance in Millihenry's. What I do not understand is this one 8 inch "coil model" works good on the 10 khz Bandido and also works good on a Golden Sabre 12 khz or even a 15 khz Golden Sabre Plus !!! My question is 1. When you inject a vlf signal and it does not match the coils resonance 1. ARE YOU CREATING HARMONICS ???. 2. Are you causing PHASE DISTORTIONS ON THE RX SIDE OF THE COIL which will effect THE ACCURACY of the Discrimination circuit , or even cause more noise Problems. If Tesoro manufactures a special search coil for each of the metal detector model's they manufacture , Then all the above Questions are not important. Maybe when Tesoro uses one coil for "ALL MODELS" it is "TESORO BBS TECHNOLOGY" or "TESORO HARMONIC BBS"...So it seems like Tesoro's resonance on the coils is 14.6 to 14.7 khz and the factory will tell us that a detector model has an operating frequency of 12 khz.....I am still researching this subject...Also , there is a "Mars" , Pennsylvania !!!!............Opininions are welcome again.....Take Care............Eugene

[Max]

Simonbaker , Do you have Sprint Layout 5.0 ??? It would be very helpfull if you did !!! All the demensions you need are posted , either on this thread or from the .LAY file . I will try to find what you need and post what I can tommorrow , I hope ?? I have been "Re-Reading" this whole "Tesoro Golden Sabre" thread again , checking all the coils and coil-specs. that were posted. Yes , so far there are about 3 to 4 coils that were tested and called a "Final-coil-Design" ....But this is a Huge Thread with 98 pages and almost 2,500 posts and 1,200 pictures of Clint Eastwood ..This Golden Sabre thread was a "Work in Progress" for over a year and has a "Goldmine of information" ... I am not done searching yet , for a couple of questions I need to get answered , about Tesoro's 8 inch , concentric coil 'Resonance"...............Eugene

Do you mean this picture of above ?

With the cigar ???

About the coil... it's not 12Khz... but 14.6-14.7Khz. The large coils from tesoro have, actually, lower frequency (more inductance) but this is a sideeffect I think... in 8'' coils you'll get 14.6-14.7Khz from TGS' colpitts with that capacitors.

And also, this is the range of frequency where the TGS seems be more stable and performance oriented... I suggest anyone here matching that frequency range before of other stuff... like e.g. changing the cap at RX...

Kind regards,
Max

[amtech2005]

TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

Simonbaker , Do you have Sprint Layout 5.0 ??? It would be very helpfull if you did !!! All the demensions you need are posted , either on this thread or from the .LAY file . I will try to find what you need and post what I can tommorrow , I hope ?? I have been "Re-Reading" this whole "Tesoro Golden Sabre" thread again , checking all the coils and coil-specs. that were posted. Yes , so far there are about 3 to 4 coils that were tested and called a "Final-coil-Design" ....But this is a Huge Thread with 98 pages and almost 2,500 posts and 1,200 pictures of Clint Eastwood ..This Golden Sabre thread was a "Work in Progress" for over a year and has a "Goldmine of information" ... I am not done searching yet , for a couple of questions I need to get answered , about Tesoro's 8 inch , concentric coil 'Resonance"...............Eugene