TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[Max]

Hi Max and all friends here on the forum.
Ok, yesterday i was playing all day with DD coils to match it to 6 and 6.5 mH, and resistance btw. 18 to 22 ohms. Ok, the game was not easy for me, because when when i started to wind turns around a D shape of 22 cms high by 11 cms in diameter i got the following results:

RX 115 turns, not tighted, 6.312 mH
108 turns, not tighted, 5.478 mH
105 turns, not tighted, 5.079 mH
105 turns, tight with aluminium foild, 6.800 mH
104 turns, tight with aluminium foild, 6.798 mH
99 turns, tight with aluminium foidl, 5.824 mH
** 99 turns, tight with aluminium foild and taped with electric tape, 6.723 mH

TX 101 turns, not tighted, 4.811 mH
101 turns, tighted with aluminium foil, 6.402 mH
100 turns, tighted with aluminium foil, 5.995 mH
100 turns, tighted with aluminum foil and wound very strong with electric tape 7.542 mH
98 turns, tighted with aluminum foil and wound very strong with electric tape 5.669 mH
96 turns, not tighted, 5.378 mH
94 turns, not tighted, 5.199 mH
92 turns, not tighted, 5.003 mH
89 turns, not tighted, 4.600 mH
87 turns, not tighted, 4.458 mH
84 turns, not tighted, 4.137 mH
** 84 turns, tighted with aluminum foil and wound very strong with electric tape 5.787 mH

On both coils i used 0.25 mm wire.
Resistance on TX coil is 16.7 ohms ( a little lower)
Resistance on RX coil is 19 ohms

** I tested the coils and after i found the nulling point i got 22 cms for a 14 mm coin on air.

Max and all who are working on this project, what do you think of this results.

I used a good working LC meter, not a multimiter

I hope my own results can help us to find a good working DD coil.
I forgot to ask, what is the real trick when you wound the coil. In my case i use a smal cord to tight the coils, then i put on it the aluminium foild and i finish with the electric tape. When i place the electric tape, of course i noticed that the inductance goes high about 2 mH. So i decided to eliminate the electric tape in some cases and just wound the coils with the aluminium foil, so you can tune it easier just by tighting the foil or relising it a little, so you can play with the inductance valu a few mH.

Ok, i hope this can help to get to the best match.
Regards

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
I think you have done a good work... lots of experiments with more and less turns, lots of readings of their values and that's ok. Also that's ok that tightening the windings you get higher inductance... and also when you add the al shield. Everything fine.

"** I tested the coils and after i found the nulling point i got 22 cms for a 14 mm coin on air"

good result, but I think you could tune it better...
What about coin , wich metal it is ? Alloy ?

Some little tricks are related to shield. Have you tested coils without it ?
If so, what's detection range for same coin ? It's kitchen al roll or something else (I've noticed that aluminium/mylar is better , due to less metal content, but hard to find)?

Other issue is the overlapping zone shape and wideness. What about ? Parallel overlapping or oval ? How many millimeters between two windings at center ?

When you nulled what's the peak-to-peak voltage at RX (dumped)?

I think that with good tuning you could gain some cms.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

So my rough calculation was pretty close then?

As always

[nelson]

Hi Max and all friends here on the forum.
Ok, yesterday i was playing all day with DD coils to match it to 6 and 6.5 mH, and resistance btw. 18 to 22 ohms. Ok, the game was not easy for me, because when when i started to wind turns around a D shape of 22 cms high by 11 cms in diameter i got the following results:

RX 115 turns, not tighted, 6.312 mH
108 turns, not tighted, 5.478 mH
105 turns, not tighted, 5.079 mH
105 turns, tight with aluminium foild, 6.800 mH
104 turns, tight with aluminium foild, 6.798 mH
99 turns, tight with aluminium foidl, 5.824 mH
** 99 turns, tight with aluminium foild and taped with electric tape, 6.723 mH

TX 101 turns, not tighted, 4.811 mH
101 turns, tighted with aluminium foil, 6.402 mH
100 turns, tighted with aluminium foil, 5.995 mH
100 turns, tighted with aluminum foil and wound very strong with electric tape 7.542 mH
98 turns, tighted with aluminum foil and wound very strong with electric tape 5.669 mH
96 turns, not tighted, 5.378 mH
94 turns, not tighted, 5.199 mH
92 turns, not tighted, 5.003 mH
89 turns, not tighted, 4.600 mH
87 turns, not tighted, 4.458 mH
84 turns, not tighted, 4.137 mH
** 84 turns, tighted with aluminum foil and wound very strong with electric tape 5.787 mH

On both coils i used 0.25 mm wire.
Resistance on TX coil is 16.7 ohms ( a little lower)
Resistance on RX coil is 19 ohms

** I tested the coils and after i found the nulling point i got 22 cms for a 14 mm coin on air.

Max and all who are working on this project, what do you think of this results.

I used a good working LC meter, not a multimiter

I hope my own results can help us to find a good working DD coil.
I forgot to ask, what is the real trick when you wound the coil. In my case i use a smal cord to tight the coils, then i put on it the aluminium foild and i finish with the electric tape. When i place the electric tape, of course i noticed that the inductance goes high about 2 mH. So i decided to eliminate the electric tape in some cases and just wound the coils with the aluminium foil, so you can tune it easier just by tighting the foil or relising it a little, so you can play with the inductance valu a few mH.

Ok, i hope this can help to get to the best match.
Regards

Nelson

Hi Ultimate,
as I said before (somewhere) I've 3 working coils for my bandido, and tested them very carefully.
First is original tesoro's coil 9x8 spider.
Second is homemade concentric coplanar 8'' diameter round.
Third is homemade DD 22cm diameter coil (much like Nelson's one).

I have good performances with all of these!

9x8 and concentric round are really useful for pinpointing, really easy... and have similar behaviour on the field when you detect a target... no big differences between.

DD is another story... it gives me some (sometimes incredible) boost on depth and I could say that it gain maybe 8-10% in depth respect 9x8 I use too on the field. But pinpointing you'll do with tip of coil... not easy. Keep in mind that you lose some disc using DD coil... but really few... you need CC to get best disc (I've best with 9x8 ).

I made DD with 120turns for both tx and rx... wire is not so important... but you have to match 18-23 ohm resistance, and of course impeadance... but it's relatively easy (compared e.g. with my homemade CC 8'', that was not so easy to null). You could use 30awg wire... or 0.28mm diameter (with varnish).
What's truly important is nulling. A good nulling is a must for every tesoro clone coil... (and vlf-tr in general) cause if you can't get few mV peak-to-peak nulling you'll experience saturations, instability and loss of sens.

I suggest you making DD first cause it's easy to get it work in few time... then, if you want/have time/have wire to cut... try to make a good CC 8'' or
10''.

Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

I made DD with 120turns for both tx and rx... wire is not so important... but you have to match 18-23 ohm resistance, and of course impeadance... but it's relatively easy (compared e.g. with my homemade CC 8'', that was not so easy to null). You could use 30awg wire... or 0.28mm diameter (with varnish).

So my rough calculation was pretty close then?

[Ultimate_Haze]

Schematics/Pulse IB discriminator (by Sasho - Varna)/3

Posted by stupid man called GETO

[Ultimate_Haze]

Hi,

Sorry!
Never mind.
I wont ask so many questions any more.

[Max]

Can you look at this ugly picture posted for Pulse IB discriminator (by Sasho - Varna) and tell me are components marked corect?Because I used this as a guid!

Hi,
ehm this thread is becoming an Ultimate_Maze can't find stuff. Wich picture ??? Sasho's circuit picture...?
I don't know much of his detector... maybe you could ask him to know if everything is ok or there are bugs in posted stuff.

Best regards,
Max

[Ultimate_Haze]

Can you look at this ugly picture posted for Pulse IB discriminator (by Sasho - Varna) and tell me are components marked corect?Because I used this as a guid!

[Ultimate_Haze]

Hi

Hi,
I will try MAX and will inform you.Thanks!
This smaller coil should be well ground balansing and will be more sensitive I think!
But any way I am shore that will wind for a while before I make proper coil.
My G.Sabre still not ready.........
Will try it on Pulse IB discriminator (by Sasho - Varna) that I have finish yesterday!
But will finish it within few days and will post the results!
Thanks again

[Max]

Its look like I have one afther all!
Please MAX tell me what do you think I have came to disition to make as small as I can coil first.I now that I will make many before I reach what I want,so I have 12,6 cm former to wind coils on it/top cover from plastic CD's holder/.How many turns did you advace me to use for making good coil?
With this 0,30mm wire?
p.s.sorry for boring questions!But I wanna make shore I get it all and begin makin my own corect conclusions!
Thanks for helping
.


You rock

Hi,
try this configuration:

D=12.6cm (diameter of former? seems small!) you get
circ = 12.6*3.1416= 39.5cm
so 82/0.395 = about 208turns to get 22ohm

so try TX=210, RX=240

and let me know!

Best regards,
Max

[Ultimate_Haze]

OP

Its look like I have one afther all!
Please MAX tell me what do you think I have came to disition to make as small as I can coil first.I now that I will make many before I reach what I want,so I have 12,6 cm former to wind coils on it/top cover from plastic CD's holder/.How many turns did you advace me to use for making good coil?
With this 0,30mm wire?
p.s.sorry for boring questions!But I wanna make shore I get it all and begin makin my own corect conclusions!
Thanks for helping
.


You rock

[Ultimate_Haze]

Hi

Hi,
max thanks for making this clear for me!
I am very happy now.
I will ask some more stupid questions,but not today.

[Max]

Thanks,
for your advice Max.
I just wanned to try other detector is it working also IB and because I dont have that tipe of coil here with me I decide to full around with this!

For Tesoro I will make like you say with 0,30 mm and 124 turns for TX and 145 turns for RX ?And using 18 cm former make 22cm coil afther, two windings are bened to D shape.

Are you talking about this 22N capacitator near TX and 15N near RX that must be mached if there is bad disck or poor sens,or I should place in search coil other capacitator with proper value?

Hi,
"Are you talking about this 22N capacitator near TX and 15N near RX that must be mached if there is bad disck or poor sens,or I should place in search coil other capacitator with proper value?"
yes, but not inside coil housing... not required. Just change they to suite needs, so having close to original freq. on tx side and, if needed, change on rx side other cap. Just do it on PCB directly.
Referring to tx:
0,30 mm and 124 turns if you use larger former diameter 21cm, more wire in one turn
and then 145 turns if you use 18cm diameter former ...to make windings.

You can make both tx,rx same number, but I suggest this:
wire 0.30 - former 18cm diameter - TX=145 turns RX=160turns
would be fine I think.

Best regards,
Max

[Ultimate_Haze]

!

Thanks,
for your advice Max.
I just wanned to try other detector is it working also IB and because I dont have that tipe of coil here with me I decide to full around with this!

For Tesoro I will make like you say with 0,30 mm and 124 turns for TX and 145 turns for RX ?And using 18 cm former make 22cm coil afther, two windings are bened to D shape.

Are you talking about this 22N capacitator near TX and 15N near RX that must be mached if there is bad disck or poor sens,or I should place in search coil other capacitator with proper value?

[Max]

Hello,
Max!
I am glad that you help,but I can find 0,20 and 0,30mm for now.What will you advice me?With 0,30mm?Wich diameter?How many turns?
Thanks
I am now just testing with 0,120 and because someone told that lower D havs a higher resistance,I try with 70 TX and 75 turns for RX.What do you think will this work?D=21cm

Hi,
0.30mm is close to 29AWG (28.73mm) that have a resistance of 268.4024 ohm for 1km so 0.2684 ohm/m.
But this is intended for bare wires, without varnish.

If you have 0.30mm varnished you actually have something between 0.27 to 0.28mm diameter of internal conductor (varnish thickness could vary from manifacture to another, kind of insulations etc).

So I'll assume you have about 0.28mm diameter (bare) wire, so a 29AWG.

You need to match the tesoro range (18-24 ohm for both windings). and so it's relatively easy know how many turns you need if you know the former side lenght. Assuming you would like to build a 22cm DD coil you need a former that have something like 18cm diameter former (this depends much on how much you want the overlap zone is wide...) and then 56.52cm of circumference.

OK. Assume you want 22ohm of resistance you need :
22/0.2684 = 81.96 = 82meters
and so 82/0.5652 = 145 turns

D=21cm (diameter of former? seems big!) you get
circ = 21*3.1416= 66cm
so 82/0.66 = about 124turns to get 22ohm

You could use same number of turns for both TX and RX... but sometimes is better adding some turns (10-20) to RX making it out-tuned respect to tx.

Anyway, there are specs also for inductances on that coils.
When doing this stuff you need obtaining sililar to original frequencies on at least tx side... so you can change capacitor to match operating frequency.
On rx things are easy... is air-core transformer and you get right freq. (tx side one)...but also here you would change cap if notice low sens or bad disc.

"I am now just testing with 0,120 and because someone told that lower D havs a higher resistance,I try with 70 TX and 75 turns for RX.What do you think will this work?D=21cm"
I've tested also with smaller wires... but have bad results... of course you could match resistance as described above also here... thus reducing turns... but you'll get too far inductance from expected values to get it work.

Best regards,
Max