TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[Fred]

Interesting coil!
80% concentric, 20% Omega.
If you read the PDF file about coils on the mainpages,you find that concentric coils also use part of windings for nulling.Similar i think.
Regards,
Fred.

[WM6]

I will try this. When I have understood wrong, then correct me please.
Aziz

Hi Aziz, I think we are close to basic idea.
Must be very artistic to simulate this.
Maybe only this addition about balancing/tunning:

[Aziz]

Yes, Aziz, seems a bit complicated but is not, i hope.
Here is starting sketch to help you understand principle.
Thru tunning loop past only 1/3 or 1/4 of selected TX signal power.
All others can be the same data as you put in your last omega space visualisation.

Ok, I think, I understand you now. The transmit coil is a one wire with x length, that is wound. It has a beginning and ending point, where the signal power is feeded (current I). The current is the same through the tx coils. But the number of windings of the inner tx-coil differs (e.g. every 3.rd winding, you go to inner coil and back).
The balance is made by changing (increasing) the flux area of the inner tx-coil (there and back area of the winding). If the flux area is zero (not the circle flux), the inner tx-coil does not induce magnetic field.

Ok, this is possible. But I have to make some simplifications. The connection between the inner and outer coil can be neglected, if they are close together. The inner coil can be made of some partial elliptical coils without rounding corner. This complex type of coils is not implemented and therefore the simplification is needed. Anyway the result will be almost the same as for ideal model.

I will try this. When I have understood wrong, then correct me please.
Aziz

[WM6]

Hi WM6,
Generally, it is possible, also the nulling (balancing) of the RX-coil. But I can't read, understand and interpret the schematic above. Can you explain or show me a bit exactly?
Aziz

Yes, Aziz, seems a bit complicated but is not, i hope.
Here is starting sketch to help you understand principle.
Thru tunning loop past only 1/3 or 1/4 of selected TX signal power.
All others can be the same data as you put in your last omega space visualisation.

[Max]

Let's back to main subject here;
i am just making omega coil for TGSL. TX is 21cm and rx 10.5mm. Wire is 0.25mm. I wounded 98 windings for TX and 167 wind. for RX. I founded those numbers exact to suit needed inductances: 6mH (TX) and 6.5mH (TX).
Coil is not finished yet.Tomorrow i will apply f.cage (Al foil) and perform nulling. Later i will test it with TGSL to see performances....and of course report here...

Hi Ivconic,
nice to hear you are on the way with new coil for TGS! This time omega one ! Cool!

Why so small ? Just a trial ? 21cm round is good for e.g. trashy sites and with extremely precision pinpointing... but I think it cannot compete with your older large DD on depth sector.

I think a good one will be in the 10'' range... so about 25cm external round TX. This could match DD performances and also give better than before , with lose of widescan but much better pinpointing.

What do you think ?

Kind regards,
Max

[Aziz]

Hi WM6,

Excellent work aziz. Very interesting output.
Can you processing some different shape of Omega coil?
Mean "omega" solution attached below:
"Overlapping" / tunning TX loop are not fully TX wound, it consist of only every third or fourth turn of TX coil.

]

Generally, it is possible, also the nulling (balancing) of the RX-coil. But I can't read, understand and interpret the schematic above. Can you explain or show me a bit exactly?
I need the number of turns (such as 1 turn, 10 turn, 1/3 turn (referred to one for instance), etc.) of each coil. How they are connected (serial / parallel). Resistance of the coils (for current driving). Geometry data (position, radius, etc.).

It is not easy to put all the input data to the machine. I am sorry about, that my computer does not understand my speak. Remember Scotty on Star Trek: " Hello Computer! Computer? Computer??? "
Aziz

[WM6]

Anyway, the software is not yet finished. But probably (hopefully) I will get many surprises and results with that in the future. I will inform you then.
Aziz

Excellent work aziz. Very interesting output.
Can you processing some different shape of Omega coil?
Mean "omega" solution attached below:
"Overlapping" / tunning TX loop are not fully TX wound, it consist of only every third or fourth turn of TX coil.

]

[Aziz]

Yes, you are probably right.
Nice software that!
Why dont you make trial and share here with us, just in tetsing purposes.
Regards!

Due to patent opportunity, I do not want, that somebody finds a patentable coil. So I can ensure that the results can be shared here, without patenting.


Anyway, the software is not yet finished. But probably (hopefully) I will get many surprises and results with that in the future. I will inform you then.
Aziz

[ivconic]

Yes, you are probably right.
Nice software that!
Why dont you make trial and share here with us, just in tetsing purposes.
Regards!

[Aziz]

I made an another balanced omega coil simulation. The green coil is the RX-coil on balanced (nulled) position. This shows, why omega coils are for pin-pointing convenient. The high magnetic strength is good covered on the flux area of the RX-coil. So the higher the magnetic strength, the higher the induction on target objects.
Aziz

[Aziz]

Hi ivconic,

Due to asymmetry of omega coil, temperature change could cause heavy phase shift drifts on perfectly balanced coils. Keep in mind.

[ivconic]

[quote=WM6;68680]

Let's back to main subject here;i am just making omega coil for TGSL. TX is 21cm and rx 10.5mm. Wire is 0.25mm. I wounded 98 windings for TX and 167 wind. for RX. I founded those numbers exact to suit needed inductances: 6mH (TX) and 6.5mH (TX).Coil is not finished yet.Tomorrow i will apply f.cage (Al foil) and perform nulling. Later i will test it with TGSL to see performances....and of course report here...[ /quote]

Great to hear that, ivconic, you are man of action, not like we others only talking about. Hope that TGS & omega will form Terminator couple. I am curious (and for sure not the sole) in your report.

To tell you the truth; i am not expecting huge depth improvements with it. I rather expect narrowed pinpointing as well as more accurate discrimination.
There is another problem with handmade DD coils; no matter how hard i tried to make perfectly matched DD coil, there is always phase shift problem there.
Inperfection of windings theirself, some mechanical inperfections and drifts in dimensions, twisted wires etc.etc...all those causing cetrtain phase distortion.It is not only important to balance coils at desk,in workshop. Later on the field those coils are suffering due their mechanical inperfections and signal easily adopt more phase shift than it should be if coil was made more properly using some industrial methods, we amateurs can not afford, by the rule.
I have hopes that omega coil will be less sensitive to simillar inperfections and phase shift will be in expected (conditioned) ranges. For example if soil cause +3 degrees of phase shift (theoretically, using perfectly made coils) than on my handmade with all its drawback (mechanical) soil will cause +5 or even more shifting in phase, no matter i gained good measurements in my workshop on the desk. I noticed some "inpurities" on "perfectly" matched and balanced handamde coil, during prospecting on many different terrains. At the same time i compared my handmade with Minelab Sovereign (which is right now sort of reference machine for me). In workshop, at desk, connected to measuring instruments, both detectors are acting pretty simillar. TSL even showed better values, more depth, same nulling values as Sovereign's coil. But on the field, under real conditions, TGS had some "jumps" in behavior. Sometimes it performs much better than MS, sometimes mush worse. It has noticeable "oscilations" in behavior, while MS is very constant at most of terrains. OK, those 2 cant just be compared due pretty advantage technology involved in MS. But i didnt payed much of attention on machine itself, i payed more of my attention on coils behavior. MS coil doesnt showed so noticeable "oscilations" genarally, as TGS coil. Minelab's DD coil is perfectly optimized.
So as i said; i do grow some hopes that omega coil will suffer less from jitters than ordinary DD coil.
Speaking of this; might be that OO coil is also better to keep good performances, but also not so comfortable to work with in hard conditions...only on leveled terrains...
I will see...
Might be my hopes does not have real backrgorund!?

[WM6]

[quote=ivconic;68668]Let's back to main subject here;i am just making omega coil for TGSL. TX is 21cm and rx 10.5mm. Wire is 0.25mm. I wounded 98 windings for TX and 167 wind. for RX. I founded those numbers exact to suit needed inductances: 6mH (TX) and 6.5mH (TX).Coil is not finished yet.Tomorrow i will apply f.cage (Al foil) and perform nulling. Later i will test it with TGSL to see performances....and of course report here...[ /quote]

Great to hear that, ivconic, you are man of action, not like we others only talking about. Hope that TGS & omega will form Terminator couple. I am curious (and for sure not the sole) in your report.

[ivconic]

Oh yes....small contra circle at TX is 9cm...i forgot that!

[ivconic]

Let's back to main subject here;
i am just making omega coil for TGSL. TX is 21cm and rx 10.5mm. Wire is 0.25mm. I wounded 98 windings for TX and 167 wind. for RX. I founded those numbers exact to suit needed inductances: 6mH (TX) and 6.5mH (TX).
Coil is not finished yet.Tomorrow i will apply f.cage (Al foil) and perform nulling. Later i will test it with TGSL to see performances....and of course report here...