RELIC HAWK

[Max]

Yes you are right; those are noted there....
Guess what; i used last pcb draw..but i removed ground plane in SL before preparing film for printing on pcb...ha,ha,ha!!!! What stupid move i made!!!
Maybe i made crucial mistake!!!
I personally do not aprove ground planes on pcb like this one, that's why i moved it. I guess i made mistake. Never mind. For example take original pcb, it is smt and ground plane is on bottom layer...but most important fact is Al metalic enclosure for original RH. Recently man who bought original RH pcb from me came and we tested RH after he repaired it. We tested it without enclosure and guess what - bedlam of falses and instabillity also. So...i presume that when this handmade packed in metalic enclosure, huge percent of instabillity will be solved anyway.
About capacitors...why those are not included in pcb draw? It is job now to add them on already populated pcb...hmm, some job.

Way how this my handmade is working now is giving me a hopes that schematic is accurate, so as pcb. Maybe some slice...possibly mistaken component..but i think not...i think this is it.
Also keep in mind that original RH does not have speaker included, just earphone plug.
Today i discovered huge negative influence from speaker to rest of pcb.
It was just enough to take speaker in hand and approx. 30% of instabillity disapeared in front of my eyes!!!
So .... damn, i am back on the begining - same story as with TGSL...we must adapt present RH project to work with ordinary speaker without intermodulations with it.
I was thinking to remove BSR51 (MPSA 13 ) and to put some strong fet there.
But it would be very interesting we to analyze Musketeer's audio, cose on skim look, those 2 audios looks exactly the same. Yet Musketeer do have speaker and volume control and RH dont???
I had both RH and Musketeer, but at the time, i was not interested to open box and examine details....how lazy i was!? Damn!? Now i do have regrets!!
Now i am trying to spot something interesting on photos i have...yet without success...photos are low resolution, low quality, and it is not possiblle to use them and see some details arround audio at Musketeer...sheeeshh!

I guess Max have problems with Disc just because of inproper coil he is using with it.
Why? Because i dont have simillar problems at all. My handamade is working erratically but Disc is working perfect. Iron is rejected totally from 1cm over coil surface..up to end of detection range..
So it shows that Max's coil is not perfect at all. Something he made wrong there.
I took skim reading on previous posts ( i am tired and dont have enough concentration to follow all the posts)
but i noticed some pretty small resistances Max mentioned there? TX coil is over 3 ohms for sure and RX over 30 ...so...
Pitty Max is not here now...
Ok...we will wait him to come back.
Fred...i have device on table. Tell me what ever you want me to measure and i will...
Problem is i dont have second probe for my scope..just one so far. I cant use both channels by now.
I will make diy probe in next few days...at least for some elementar readings..

Hi,
I'm sorry I cannot read here much and post at now about, have really huge troubles these days and really no time to mess with MDs and hobbies.

I used all that caps under the RH's PCB, that's essential to keep it quiet.

I also removed a very bad ground loop...caused lot of noise in signal path.

My disc problem is with iron at far distance, maybe depends on coil I made.

I don't know at now when I will be back here to discuss details, hope will be soon.

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

Recently man who bought original RH pcb from me came and we tested RH after he repaired it. We tested it without enclosure and guess what - bedlam of falses and instabillity also. So...i presume that when this handmade packed in metalic enclosure, huge percent of instabillity will be solved anyway. [/FONT]
About capacitors...why those are not included in pcb draw? It is job now to add them on already populated pcb...hmm, some job.

Today i discovered huge negative influence from speaker to rest of pcb.
It was just enough to take speaker in hand and approx. 30% of instabillity disapeared in front of my eyes!!!
So .... damn, i am back on the begining - same story as with TGSL...we must adapt present RH project to work with ordinary speaker without intermodulations with it.
I was thinking to remove BSR51 (MPSA 13 ) and to put some strong fet there.
But it would be very interesting we to analyze Musketeer's audio, cose on skim look, those 2 audios looks exactly the same. Yet Musketeer do have speaker and volume control and RH dont???
I guess Max have problems with Disc just because of inproper coil he is using with it.
Why? Because i dont have simillar problems at all. My handamade is working erratically but Disc is working perfect. Iron is rejected totally from 1cm over coil surface..up to end of detection range..
So it shows that Max's coil is not perfect at all. Something he made wrong there.
I took skim reading on previous posts ( i am tired and dont have enough concentration to follow all the posts)
but i noticed some pretty small resistances Max mentioned there? TX coil is over 3 ohms for sure and RX over 30 ...so...
Pitty Max is not here now...
Ok...we will wait him to come back.
Fred...i have device on table. Tell me what ever you want me to measure and i will...
Problem is i dont have second probe for my scope..just one so far. I cant use both channels by now.
I will make diy probe in next few days...at least for some elementar readings..

Hi Ivconic,
That´s good news about the disc and speaker influence.We must try metallic enclosure too.
If you removed GP i guess you had to make all new traces again to connect ground to components...but that leads to loops somewhere.
About the caps, i could not find a way to include them in PCB yet keeping leads short, so i decided that hey will be soldered on the other side, below ic´s.better performances this way, even if it will not look so nice.
About speaker influence over stability, one could just connect a separate power supply foa audio amp and see how it improves.

I still have to build the coil, so any information you have that could help building it right one will be appreciated.

Best regards,
Fred.

[Eugene52]

RELIC HAWK

MR. IVCONIC , This might help ?? I will keep looking for the other side . This one today is not too bad and its from Forum member GTK , ...........I will keep looking........Regards....Eugene / Junior Member / Stalni-Clan of Hobi-Detektori

[ivconic]

Yes you are right! I remember saw those somewhere....but where??
Might be we pull out some benefits from those?

[Eugene52]

RELIC HAWK

Ivconic , Somewhere posted on Geotech , are very sharp Musketeer photos , I am searching again , and I will re-post the photos if I am lucky and find them !!........Regards....Eugene / Stalni-clan / Junior Member

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,
Thanks for the interesting report.
Those caps are here,(see picture below) and they are important.
I wish i could help about this, but i made the circuit and stopped at beginning of summer, i will continue the work very soon.
Max have made a lot more experiments with it, and hope he will come back soon.Last message from him he was refering problems, and said he will not come here so soon,this was maybe 2 weeks ago.
He also found some offset voltage at U8 and made some changes with connection to 6k8 resistor near U9 pin9 ,but i didn´t made them on PCB as we agreed that although they improved stability they were not so logical.
Max conclusion was that there was probably a small mistake on the diagram somewhere, but a test with real coil would be very interesting, he could not adjust GB to completely ignore iron at some distance and thought it could be from the coil : we don´t know offset at waveforms for sure.
I think there was some other small detail, but i cant remember where right now.
I know that after building it Max carefully checked the PCB many times to find problems,and i immediatley corrected the important mistakes,so last PCB version is updated.
When Max built his version there were no ground plane yet,and he spotted an awfull ground loop too that was inducing voltage, so i made the ground plane version PCB.
At least detection range is very good.Hope we can solve intability problems.

regards,
Fred.

Yes you are right; those are noted there....
Guess what; i used last pcb draw..but i removed ground plane in SL before preparing film for printing on pcb...ha,ha,ha!!!! What stupid move i made!!!
Maybe i made crucial mistake!!!
I personally do not aprove ground planes on pcb like this one, that's why i moved it. I guess i made mistake. Never mind. For example take original pcb, it is smt and ground plane is on bottom layer...but most important fact is Al metalic enclosure for original RH. Recently man who bought original RH pcb from me came and we tested RH after he repaired it. We tested it without enclosure and guess what - bedlam of falses and instabillity also. So...i presume that when this handmade packed in metalic enclosure, huge percent of instabillity will be solved anyway.
About capacitors...why those are not included in pcb draw? It is job now to add them on already populated pcb...hmm, some job.

Way how this my handmade is working now is giving me a hopes that schematic is accurate, so as pcb. Maybe some slice...possibly mistaken component..but i think not...i think this is it.
Also keep in mind that original RH does not have speaker included, just earphone plug.
Today i discovered huge negative influence from speaker to rest of pcb.
It was just enough to take speaker in hand and approx. 30% of instabillity disapeared in front of my eyes!!!
So .... damn, i am back on the begining - same story as with TGSL...we must adapt present RH project to work with ordinary speaker without intermodulations with it.
I was thinking to remove BSR51 (MPSA 13 ) and to put some strong fet there.
But it would be very interesting we to analyze Musketeer's audio, cose on skim look, those 2 audios looks exactly the same. Yet Musketeer do have speaker and volume control and RH dont???
I had both RH and Musketeer, but at the time, i was not interested to open box and examine details....how lazy i was!? Damn!? Now i do have regrets!!
Now i am trying to spot something interesting on photos i have...yet without success...photos are low resolution, low quality, and it is not possiblle to use them and see some details arround audio at Musketeer...sheeeshh!

I guess Max have problems with Disc just because of inproper coil he is using with it.
Why? Because i dont have simillar problems at all. My handamade is working erratically but Disc is working perfect. Iron is rejected totally from 1cm over coil surface..up to end of detection range..
So it shows that Max's coil is not perfect at all. Something he made wrong there.
I took skim reading on previous posts ( i am tired and dont have enough concentration to follow all the posts)
but i noticed some pretty small resistances Max mentioned there? TX coil is over 3 ohms for sure and RX over 30 ...so...
Pitty Max is not here now...
Ok...we will wait him to come back.
Fred...i have device on table. Tell me what ever you want me to measure and i will...
Problem is i dont have second probe for my scope..just one so far. I cant use both channels by now.
I will make diy probe in next few days...at least for some elementar readings..

[Fred]

What bugs me is fact that there are not those capacitors on original RH...? So...
Ok...NE5532 could be used at some places, but i dont see why it is better than TLC272?
I guess i must wait Max to return here....

Hi Ivconic,
Thanks for the interesting report.
Those caps are here,(see picture below) and they are important.
I wish i could help about this, but i made the circuit and stopped at beginning of summer, i will continue the work very soon.
Max have made a lot more experiments with it, and hope he will come back soon.Last message from him he was refering problems, and said he will not come here so soon,this was maybe 2 weeks ago.
He also found some offset voltage at U8 and made some changes with connection to 6k8 resistor near U9 pin9 ,but i didn´t made them on PCB as we agreed that although they improved stability they were not so logical.
Max conclusion was that there was probably a small mistake on the diagram somewhere, but a test with real coil would be very interesting, he could not adjust GB to completely ignore iron at some distance and thought it could be from the coil : we don´t know offset at waveforms for sure.
I think there was some other small detail, but i cant remember where right now.
I know that after building it Max carefully checked the PCB many times to find problems,and i immediatley corrected the important mistakes,so last PCB version is updated.
When Max built his version there were no ground plane yet,and he spotted an awfull ground loop too that was inducing voltage, so i made the ground plane version PCB.
At least detection range is very good.Hope we can solve intability problems.

regards,
Fred.

[ivconic]

What bugs me is fact that there are not those capacitors on original RH...? So...
Ok...NE5532 could be used at some places, but i dont see why it is better than TLC272?
I guess i must wait Max to return here....

[tiktak]

HI,

Hi,
Ivica.
Yes those 100n make a whole thing a lot more stable.And that is your probleme.I remember this moment.
And also I think that some TL27... were changed with ne5534??But not shore for this.Its in thread.I have no time now to rewread it.
I hope we busted it soon.Its hell of device!

[ivconic]

1 micro (1uH) it is. It work both ways on board or inside the coil. If it is on your pcb you can adjust the phase shift the way ivconic does - with small pieces of metal inside the coil.

Old post..but now i spoted it.
Not true Eclipse! Way out of real situation.
Once i just told a story of simillar case. I put some Al chunks in coil and observed phase behavior. It was only in experimental purposes. Than and never again!
I never left anything metalic in the finished coil so far. I think that would be huge nonsence!
So you missunderstood my point than. I must say this to prevent any further missunderstandings!

[ivconic]

Hi,
Ivconic.
I am glad that you are finaly here.On this thread.
You now that Max wont be here for a while.I still havent build my PCB.
Have other problems now.But if you read back you will see that Max made it work very calm!
Did you put those 100N comp. caps on all ICs?
Also GEB should be multiturn you now this.
And also some ICs changing gived good results.Check it.

No, i didnt knew Max is absent!? I am not ..kind a "up to date" with latest posts here so really i didnt knew.
No.. i didnt put those. I dont think those will solve the problem.
Yes manual GEB could be mutliturn, but i didnt used it by now. I am using only trimmer on pcb, switched to automatic gb.
What ic's more to change? I think this is most closest to original, no need to change ic's any more.
Ok...i will have to read whole this thread again, from very start.

Regards Tiktak and Nakky, and thanks...
Ok i am here....we will discuss this more...

[nakky]

Ivconic,nice to see you work on Relic Hawk . I hope you can find mistake and make it work properly . Grt Nakky.

[tiktak]

Hi

Hi,
Ivconic.
I am glad that you are finaly here.On this thread.
You now that Max wont be here for a while.I still havent build my PCB.
Have other problems now.But if you read back you will see that Max made it work very calm!
Did you put those 100N comp. caps on all ICs?
Also GEB should be multiturn you now this.
And also some ICs changing gived good results.Check it.

[ivconic]

Oh ...btw, instead 27M2's i put TLC272's there - only diference.
Transistors are BC337 and BC327, at audio i put MPSA13. Small (at audio) transformer i made and it is 14.3mH. At RX input i put small 1mH choke (resistor look-like).
So...what else...?
I will continue later..

Just to remind you more;
original coil is DD 39cm diammeter. TX is approx. 3.1 ohms and RX approx 38 ohms (maybe i am wrong a bit i forgot original measurements, but i can measure again tonight, if it does matter). TX is 1mH and RX iz 15mH.

[ivconic]

Ok, so i made it using last SL files and Max's last schematic.
Original coil is attached and it is working...but very erratically. Frequency is 4.994 kHz. TX output is 16vpp. Power drain is 52mA.
When i adjust GEB trimmer on pcb to make it silent it stays silent until move coin over coil. Than detection occurs with pleasant RH tone. But it continues with "peep,peep,peep..." even when coin is removed. So i need to do again something to make it silent. Detection on 1e is more than good, over 45cm in air. Disc circuitry seems to work fine cose it is not reacting on large iron at all. Turning trimmers and pots i get the point where it can detect iron also. I was amazed when it detected small iron claws at more than 80cm in the air.
My handmade is just finished, i am very exhausted. It is not checked totally and adjusted well at all.
To tell you the truth i am not quite sure how to adjust those 3 trimmers on pcb? Turned it fully and havent noticed any change in behaviour!?
Also Sense pot is not changing anything. Only 4th trimmer on pcb - GEB is making some differences and also Disc pot too.
So...
I guess it is possible some small mistake made by me or pcb designer so it wont work properly. I respected all the original components values.
I am very interested in your work Max? Is your device calm? What happens when you close coin to coil and than remove away?
Any special spots i have to pay attention on, on pcb? It is rather complex pcb and schematic too, some changes were made (i presume) so i can use some help here for sure.
Waiting your replies, i will be online in the evening.
Best regards!