RELIC HAWK

[Max]

Hi Max, doesn´t look so dificult :just wind the first coil the usual way.Then Put it perpendicular and tape it to the board ,then wind the other coil passing your new wire inside it.As long as the coil holding your new wire is small enought to pass inside, that is almost the same work than doing separate coils..i think
Regards,
Fred.

Hi,
yes, that's the way I thought too... using a small reel that will pass inside the first coil...

additional problems are at shielding... you e.g. shield first coil before wound second, but then you'll have to shield second when both are chained... tricky but possible.

I think it will require some 3-4 the time I usually do simple coils.

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

Hi,
I think it's the way of Nexus' coils... but seems hard to do... cause make chained windings is not so easy without some particular former I think...

Also it could be easy with round coils... but on DD is even more complicated.

Anyway, the idea is interesting... who knows... maybe in the future someone will find some good strategy to wind easy this way.

Kind regards,
Max

Hi Max, doesn´t look so dificult :just wind the first coil the usual way.Then Put it perpendicular and tape it to the board ,then wind the other coil passing your new wire inside it.As long as the coil holding your new wire is small enought to pass inside, that is almost the same work than doing separate coils..i think
Regards,
Fred.

[Max]

BTW,to get a better nulling i had the idea to make a coil with wires passing inside of each other.This way a "perfect" nulling could be achieved.
What do you think ?
Regards,
Fred.

Hi,
I think it's the way of Nexus' coils... but seems hard to do... cause make chained windings is not so easy without some particular former I think...

Also it could be easy with round coils... but on DD is even more complicated.

Anyway, the idea is interesting... who knows... maybe in the future someone will find some good strategy to wind easy this way.

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

BTW,to get a better nulling i had the idea to make a coil with wires passing inside of each other.This way a "perfect" nulling could be achieved.
What do you think ?
Regards,
Fred.

[Max]

Hi,
Max.
But if so there is no metter what is exact frequency.In this case.
What shel i try to fix the phase shift?

Hi,
no... well... if you made on a particular shape former... you already know wich would be the end frequency once on the housing... just little variations.

That's like TGS coils... you use a particular former... and not change much the shape of the halve... that way you get about the frequency required every time you made a new one.

Sure, if you change much the shape you'll change also frequency more and more... usually is not a big problem once you have exact number of turns and shape of former... you need just little adjustments to get it work.

About phase shift... in the near of absolute nulling (zero) you'll get many different angles; things start to complicate when you need a particular phase shift between tx and rx but to reach it you outnull the coil too much: too residual voltage is a bad sideeffect cause then, due to hi amplification and ground effect, you could experience saturation of op amp chain...no good.

The best is find a good null (low residual voltage) and required phase shift: that coil is the PERFECT coil for VLF, cause have everything needed to deal good with mineralization and disc issues.

Sometimes some coils are not easy to null good at right phase... then one will simply discard them and make others... no easy solution: due mainly to thickness of bundles and lateral flux chaining.

Kind regards,
Max

[tiktak]

Hi,

Hi,
Max.
But if so there is no metter what is exact frequency.In this case.
What shel i try to fix the phase shift?

[Max]

Hi,
I will try!I were thinking that the frequency is set buy number of windings.Now I get your idea.
Thanks

Hi,
yes it's so... but if you change the shape of boundle you change inductance... so also frequency.

But just few hundreds Hz most of the times.

Kind regards,
Max

[tiktak]

Hi,

Hi,
I will try!I were thinking that the frequency is set buy number of windings.Now I get your idea.
Thanks

[Fred]

Hi,
Its hard to change numbers and shape with shields....

I don´t think turns should be changed, once you get the right frequency with shields you will only have adjust shape,shiled are not a problem in that case.
You can also adjust the Rx capacitor to correct some imperfection in coil values....
regards,
Fred.

[tiktak]

Hi,

Hi,
Yes I now that with shields things are diferent but I wanna experiment with winding numbers and coil shape all the time to find best spots and learn.Also wire d and compose diferances.This is mainly because I still dont have scope and inductancemeter.
So when coil is exelent without shield whith them the performance will be good.Right.Its hard to change numbers and shape with shields.
So my coils are not for trash!Like I proceed.Just better nulling according to you?
For my first TGS I made 5 coils and finaly I made supreme.So ...

[Fred]

Hi Tiktak ,
To change phase you must adjust coils relative positions and observe with a scope.So you will have to adjust them for phase AND best nulling, wicht becomes more complicated.A>nd this with the shields , as they changes everything too (Without shields sensitivity is much better).
Regards,
Fred.

[tiktak]

Hi,

Hi,
Max.
It make sense.I will keep making new coils till I made right.How can I change the setting so the faseshift is good.
About the coils.Firs I test them unshielded.And in this set both were without shield.So TGS original coil is making a lot of noises because of this.And this RH ones is with low sens but no sound all.

[Max]

Hi,
Max.
How are you?
Ivconic sayed nothing in coil.I belive him.
The secret is in how deviece design.
I am shore that there are problems with iron when the unit is not properly tuned but.......which doesnt.Most are toys.And we are talking about deep targets here not hols.I never used Saxon1 or Nexus but I am doubting they can compare military quality and Ideas.Right?
So.
When I have time I will finish this PCB too and will report here.
Wish you luck with this last step.
But it must be the coil.!!!!
To tell you the truth I havent sleep last night and have tryed many coil arangments because I still cant solve my ZN probleme.Remember?
I have tryed 3 diferent coils acording pictures you post.Same wire,same numbers 100/105 but.....This ZN probleme.I have tryed many coins with same value all with ZN colour.And some are detected!!!So maybe the coins are composed of high % IRON?
But even if so on my first TGS disc is PERFECT!!!
And this isnt.For example with first with disc at max I ignore 10c,50c,1e coins and stil detect silver.And with second afther the foil I loose sudemly all Ni,ZN ALL AG also CU ALLL.Very,Very strange.
But the thing I wanned to tell you is that I have conrcted the coil from first RH bulgarian hand drawn schematic.The performance is poor no meter how nulled.But the important thing is that I get EXACLY the same sound as RH!!!!A little bitt quiet but EXACLY same!So its near.Very near.The frequency were 32. so how can reduce to 14 keeping same size coil?/this is with TGS TX !!!!/
This will work for both projects!And the coil is extremly stabile!!I havent saw such thing.Just woulnd and placed on table,conected to TGS,turn on and there are a lot of noises.TVs,internet,moovment of wires.But with this coil not at all.
I think this is interesting.
See you

Hi,
sure there isn't any pcb inside coil! We know that... cause RH is different from e.g. Sov design... with preamp inside coil housing.
My problem at coil is maybe related just with wires etc.


About coils between TGS and RH they are different... you have 1mH on RH at TX and 5.75mH at standard tesoro's for TGS or other old uMax.

The fact you hear noise with handmades means maybe shield is better in RH ones than your homemades... I have to say also that even original tesoro's are not totally shielded from noise... they pick-up some commutation noise quite easy.

About disc issues... it's related to phase shift: wrong phase shift at coil... wrong disc... like low sens to particular metals... happens with silver but also others...expecially those that give not big shifts just few... considering mass of the object.

You'll e.g. don't see it happens easy with copper... but with zinc is pretty easy to see if something is wrong at coil.

Kind regards,
Max

[tiktak]

Hi

Hi,
Max.
How are you?
Ivconic sayed nothing in coil.I belive him.
The secret is in how deviece design.
I am shore that there are problems with iron when the unit is not properly tuned but.......which doesnt.Most are toys.And we are talking about deep targets here not hols.I never used Saxon1 or Nexus but I am doubting they can compare military quality and Ideas.Right?
So.
When I have time I will finish this PCB too and will report here.
Wish you luck with this last step.
But it must be the coil.!!!!
To tell you the truth I havent sleep last night and have tryed many coil arangments because I still cant solve my ZN probleme.Remember?
I have tryed 3 diferent coils acording pictures you post.Same wire,same numbers 100/105 but.....This ZN probleme.I have tryed many coins with same value all with ZN colour.And some are detected!!!So maybe the coins are composed of high % IRON?
But even if so on my first TGS disc is PERFECT!!!
And this isnt.For example with first with disc at max I ignore 10c,50c,1e coins and stil detect silver.And with second afther the foil I loose sudemly all Ni,ZN ALL AG also CU ALLL.Very,Very strange.
But the thing I wanned to tell you is that I have conrcted the coil from first RH bulgarian hand drawn schematic.The performance is poor no meter how nulled.But the important thing is that I get EXACLY the same sound as RH!!!!A little bitt quiet but EXACLY same!So its near.Very near.The frequency were 32. so how can reduce to 14 keeping same size coil?/this is with TGS TX !!!!/
This will work for both projects!And the coil is extremly stabile!!I havent saw such thing.Just woulnd and placed on table,conected to TGS,turn on and there are a lot of noises.TVs,internet,moovment of wires.But with this coil not at all.
I think this is interesting.
See you

[Max]

...

Hi,
I think you wanna mean this is not a RH's coil. Right.

Nakky told us before...I presume, he wanna just show us that there's the small coil also in Sov.'s coils.

But in these last ones there's preamp pcb too...thing that it isn't in RH's coil.

Kind regards,
Max