RELIC HAWK

[Max]

Hi Max,like this.

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doesn't open...

[nakky]

RH

Hi Max,like this.

[Max]

Hello Forum ,
My simple thinking is first determining if the schematic is good , if is good next step is draw a prototyping printed circuit , I think it is not so important to copy exactly the board of Mlab, because this board is sure make for AUTOMATIC placements of components , not so for the inter modulating problem!!!
I prefer the design board of TESORO it is like hand draw with very thin curve line not straight line, i do not know what program they use???(see the board of GS) and to experiment with the CI it is better to mount low gold support Ci and make test....

For the so 27M4 etc... Thirst thank you Max for your very good work , i suggest I am not so sure that this Ic are much... much better than a TL064 ... in my idea , minelab buy bulk of so much industrial ic's for different department developing military detector etc... they use what they have in stock...

I think that because in a electronic design You have two basic way , first the standart with commun ic's and second the military o pro industrial design with all COMPONENTS IN THIS WAY .....Because if you mix standart and ultra tech ic it is not logical ... one?s kill another's specification.... so If they put the standart mixer 4053 they use also standart ic Tl ...etc... and front end 5534...

I was experimenting with the audio configuration of RH , work very well the 15mH choke is not a filter... it is use to boost and make a little wow innnnnnnnn at the final of the sound like a burst... I will incorporate this in my PI sound board because it is good and original idea.I make experiment with 20 mH and 47 mH work very well also... So the audio out system of the RH is a working schematic good.
Thank all guys for the geotech forum so good
Alexis

Hi Alexis,
well... most of things I agree. I don't agree that TL064 or TL074 is the same there as 27M2... the difference you could notice and could be heavy: I tested a lot on other VLF and the impact of a TL064 could be catastrophic on stability of circuit. This is expecially true at integrators in our case of RH.
The fact they used LM393, LM339, 4024, 4053... (very common and "normal" components) is not as indicative as the fact they used NE5534 at preamp.

NE5534, though today can make laugh people cause so low priced and easy to find, was very nice choice at that time about noise: 3.5nV/sqrt(Hz) @1Khz is not a casual number...
Now if you consider signal path you'll see there's a logic in using low noise preamp there along with other low noise / low power op. amps as integrators etc

Sure they are not military grade components... but RH is hobby-MD not mine detector... so I think they used good compromise between costs, availability and performances for that time and purpose, and was good choice.

The fact there are mixed common components with something a bit more "quiet" is sign they noticed great improvement using that "special" parts in that places. If they had already a big stock I don't know... probably is, but I think this couldn't be really a reason when a single unit costs so much having 20-30$ more production cost. Yes, will be 20000-30000$ more production costs on 1000 detectors made but I think this is not a problem for company like ML, expecially for their marketing department, "selling" (actually fixing "target price") an MD for a bunch of dollars more...when unit costs already some thoiusands dollars , cause brand make the difference. If someone have to spend 20$ more for a bad chinese MD he will consider don't buy at all... but if he wanna a top of the range ML MD I think he will spend 100-200$ more without asking why and will be proud of that at the end if the MD is good as expected!

It's like when you have to buy a car: if you buy a (for example) SKODA... well... any cent more could make you change idea... but if have to buy a FERRARI you'll WANNA SPEND MORE to say to the world you're a winner and meet with miss college...etc

Capitalism paradoxes ? Or just that any TH want in his hands the best MD on the planet... cause he actually buy a dream not only a box filled with components!

Just my idea of course...

Sure there's also room for improvement on components over original RH stuff, expecially today that costs of many (good) of them is so low. But I think this could be further step after replicating a good working clone.

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Alexismex, i am also interesting in this audio stage. What TGSL really lacks is audio you explained! Have you managed to skip earphone using and apply this to use with 8ohm speaker? Only thing is to void that resistor, right?
Oh, one more thought;
in case applying this audio mod to TGSL, 2 of 3 transients from 4024 must be omited, i am almost sure about this.What do you think?

[Alexismex]

Hello Forum ,
My simple thinking is first determining if the schematic is good , if is good next step is draw a prototyping printed circuit , I think it is not so important to copy exactly the board of Mlab, because this board is sure make for AUTOMATIC placements of components , not so for the inter modulating problem!!!
I prefer the design board of TESORO it is like hand draw with very thin curve line not straight line, i do not know what program they use???(see the board of GS) and to experiment with the CI it is better to mount low gold support Ci and make test....

For the so 27M4 etc... Thirst thank you Max for your very good work , i suggest I am not so sure that this Ic are much... much better than a TL064 ... in my idea , minelab buy bulk of so much industrial ic's for different department developing military detector etc... they use what they have in stock...

I think that because in a electronic design You have two basic way , first the standart with commun ic's and second the military o pro industrial design with all COMPONENTS IN THIS WAY .....Because if you mix standart and ultra tech ic it is not logical ... one?s kill another's specification.... so If they put the standart mixer 4053 they use also standart ic Tl ...etc... and front end 5534...

I was experimenting with the audio configuration of RH , work very well the 15mH choke is not a filter... it is use to boost and make a little wow innnnnnnnn at the final of the sound like a burst... I will incorporate this in my PI sound board because it is good and original idea.I make experiment with 20 mH and 47 mH work very well also... So the audio out system of the RH is a working schematic good.
Thank all guys for the geotech forum so good
Alexis

Thanks Max

[Max]

I have one question for all the friends in this forum: The semi that was given a new forum for the MRH, which was drawn by hand, mysterious to me is that U11 is drawn as 4xOAmp.Ovde it comes to the errors, if someone knows who is IC in question ?
Thanks in advance

I think is a quad comparator: LM339

[Max]

On this photo (TikTak posted) ic's are 4024,LM339 and 4053...as i remember.
Like i said, i dont have original pcb any more so can not compare and check.

Max you did splendid job. Excellent.
But your question is tough! On original RH pcb i had, ic's were without labels.
They (Minelab) scratched labels and extra put some resin over those!
So...i tried to distinguish some of ic's by looking and tracing their power lines and I/O pins. Also at the time i had Minelab Musketeer Colt (same as Advantage) with labels untouched (miracle)!!! Looking and comparing many times both pcbs i realised those are very simillar, almost identical in huge percentage. So i pulled out some conclusions. All i could remember i already posted here.
But you already done most of job by "deciphering" some ic's and pins.Thanks!

Hi,
thanks... I'm doing at my best !

Well... I actually forgot the labels were removed by Minelab... and that they also add usually resin or varnish inside the box to complicate reverse engineering... you are absolutely right: I made wrong question.

Now... I think that the components like in the last picture I placed are right about "kind"... I mean if there's an op. amp. there or comparator I think there should be in the original pcb, not considering the component model... e.g. we don't know if dual op. amp. is an 27M2 or say a TL082... but just could guess about their right identity.

I think 4024, 4066, 4053, LM393, NE5534 are sure right place... and dubts about ic identity could be related to integrators and quad-opamp device only, though I strongly belive the quad-comparator module is LM339 also in this case... if so the only dubt is about the quad-op-amp device...

It could be also an LM324 from what we know... but a TL074 or TL084 is more probable... or maybe even more probable it's something better about noise like an LS404 could be. Actually the choice of 27M2 could give some illumination... and I think the quad at U10 could be a 27M4 ic, quad version of the dual 27M2... and produced by many brands including TI and STM.

The position on the quad seems compatible with same noise level rate of integrators, so they probably used a quad with same characteristic , so of same family thus getting low power and low noise same time.

I noticed that on picture of board above there are 2 TL074... but I think it's kind of "downgrade" respect to original RH components list. I could expect "serious" parts on original RH circuit... cause of stability issues and TL074 there seems to me really trivial component on that masterpiece circuit!

Maybe some folk added some TL074 cause was handy there and good to make some low end clone ??? I think it's not the same having an TL074 or a TS27M4 there... TL074 is good... of course... but not as good as I would expect in RH's circuit.

Did you notice RH was much more stable respect to Musketter ? (I remember you told me about)

If so... probably is not only board changes involved but also active components employed: I think they at ML employed in RH the best on the market compatible with still reasonable production costs... and at that time they could have find 27Mx was better ic family for their "main" detector... what do you think about ?

Here is datasheet of 27M4.

Kind regards,
Max

I have one question for all the friends in this forum: The semi that was given a new forum for the MRH, which was drawn by hand, mysterious to me is that U11 is drawn as 4xOAmp.Ovde it comes to the errors, if someone knows who is IC in question ?
Thanks in advance

[ivconic]

On this photo (TikTak posted) ic's are 4024,LM339 and 4053...as i remember.
Like i said, i dont have original pcb any more so can not compare and check.

Max you did splendid job. Excellent.
But your question is tough! On original RH pcb i had, ic's were without labels.
They (Minelab) scratched labels and extra put some resin over those!
So...i tried to distinguish some of ic's by looking and tracing their power lines and I/O pins. Also at the time i had Minelab Musketeer Colt (same as Advantage) with labels untouched (miracle)!!! Looking and comparing many times both pcbs i realised those are very simillar, almost identical in huge percentage. So i pulled out some conclusions. All i could remember i already posted here.
But you already done most of job by "deciphering" some ic's and pins.Thanks!

[tiktak]

Hi,

Hi,
Nelson.Dont weist your time.Coinseeker is a faliour!
It begined from wrong schemtic and ended with some average working device.
We will have full copy I promiss this.Even if I have to buy one and desolder peace buy peace.
For which goal Ivconic your PCB were perfect buy the way.
Thanks

[nelson]

Hi, here is my little contribution of coinseeker MD, made from forum photos, on sprint layout.
Anyone can help to check if this is ok or need somo mods.
Regards
Nelson

Hi,
Cant you see this?
Also I stick to this pictures because they are from real RH!
And have read that this coinseeker is made according the first schemaitc post here and then optimized!The russians also claims that its nor RH schematic for shore!More like musquiteer.!So Geo unfortunatly mabe your PCB wont run but the folth is not your.
On other look this last schematic that you revize Max,have even test points marked that on first eye look on their places too.Maybe some small mistake.

[tiktak]

Hi,

Hi,
Cant you see this?
Also I stick to this pictures because they are from real RH!
And have read that this coinseeker is made according the first schemaitc post here and then optimized!The russians also claims that its nor RH schematic for shore!More like musquiteer.!So Geo unfortunatly mabe your PCB wont run but the folth is not your.
On other look this last schematic that you revize Max,have even test points marked that on first eye look on their places too.Maybe some small mistake.

[Max]

I think this tip from russian friends will help too.
Max what you think?

Hi,
it's really similar stuff... but problem is that from picture is not probable you could solve the enigma... better discuss over schematics troubles cause with it we can make assumptions and theories without having boards on hands.

Also notice that some stuff was changed for another TL074 there... and we actually miss the other LM393 and other stuff (27M2)

From what I see, the schematic make sense, though something still missing like power lines for op. amps and other stuff... that are implicit.

I think that schematic is a good starting point for the cloning!

The disc/audio stage is quite interesting cause it's kind of a mixer there...

Anyway... I wanna Ivconic jump in and look at the list of components to see if guesses could match existing schematic before making other assumptions.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi,
Max.
Nice work!But please look the pictures of Ivconics original PCB and this 4053 pins!Something wrong there.

Nelson its in the beginig but anyway

Hi,
I don't know which picture to look at... they are low resolution and give no help here about pins.

I think 4053 has sense connected that way, though seems strange at first impression...

You must understand there are analog gates inside... and can be used both ways : multiplexer or demultiplexer depending how you use them.

Now the tricky thing is that select inputs are driven by these signals,
referring to standard datasheet of 4053 by National:
A is driven by disc output stage
B is driven by battery checker circuit
C is driven by f/4 signal coming from 4024 divider

Notice also that a,b (lowercase on schematic) give information in phase / out of phase from geb chain... that is: all-metal info

Now... what I think is... the problem Geo reported is maybe cause he saw the letters a,b,c and all fade to black there... No guys... the a,b,c (lowercase on schematics) I think ARE NOT referring to the datasheet letters assignment for 4053... but are just shortcuts the schematic author put there to say... this point connects there where there's same letter... thus leading to a big confusion.

Geo do you confirm that ?

In the picture you'll see what I think is the source of all dubts around 4053 connections...

Kind regards,
Max