TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

Hi.
Has sent PCB TGSL Ivconic, and aft_72005.
Please put on a forum.
I have big request if there is who has photos PCB King Cobra, or Royal Sabre.
I want to draw PCB these machines.
Best regards.
Vladimir.

[Max]

First thank you Porkluvr for reply and for answering to some of my questions. Ill try to be specific as much as i can. Im building a Tesoro Golden Sabre from shematic that i found here on forum.
Im interested in the walues of elements on that shematic, and walues of elements on PCB if you know what i mean by this, i sure hope so haha.
Walue of 470ohm on shematic at tant.10mf on PCB is 470kohm. R3,3kohm on Shematic and on PCB is 3,9kohm, well im little cofused by that so if i explain you well plz some help here? Im also interested is -5V must be even if sonde is off, because when i turn off sonde -5V disapiere? And if there are some other diferences betwen Sheamtic and PCB plz let me know. And i apologise for poor speling but as i said my english is a little bad.
Reagrds Dino

Hi,
here you can see the latest corrections I've made. Yes the 3k3 on schematic is 3k9 on PCB, the right value is 3k3, though if you use 3k9 circuit works too, as porkluvr stated.

About -5... actually is -6.2 .. -6.4 with original components. If you use different that use more current you have a decrease... but voltage converter in GSabre is more efficient than e.g. Bandido due to the higher frequency...f/2 means 7Khz and more, so it's not a problem e.g. having some little current waste of few mA more due to diff. components.

You'll lose -V rail if disconnect coil: normal. It's so cause you'll lose oscillations so f/2 frequency input signal at 4024.

Follow schematic values and will be fine with it.

Best regards,
Max



If you remove coil you

[Esteban]

LM308

You can buy on ebay. There is a great lot of LM308. Be sure of the payment method accepted by the buyer. 10 for US$ 9 + shipping cost US$ 5.

http://cgi.ebay.com/10-PCS-N-S-LM308-LM308AN-OP-AMP-IC-Chips_W0QQitemZ150087848486QQihZ005QQcategoryZ4663QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

[porkluvr]

-5V on your detector?

Walue of 470ohm on shematic at tant.10mf on PCB is 470kohm. R3,3kohm on Shematic and on PCB is 3,9kohm, well im little cofused by that so if i explain you well plz some help here? Im also interested is -5V must be even if sonde is off, because when i turn off sonde -5V disapiere? Reagrds Dino

Dino - you should read what Ivconic and Max have already talked about, AND, view the updates and corrections to the schematic and the PCB layout diagrams that have been posted! Start on page 26, and work backwards - or start at the beginning. I haven't built GS circuit (I spend waay too much time analyzing), but maybe I can help.

The 470Ω is wrong and should be 470KΩ. This will set "time on" for the battery test at about five seconds, with a good battery.

I can think of only one 3k3Ω on the GS, in the DISC circuit? This resistor determines the "zero Discrimination" (fully CCW DISC pot position) point and should 3k3Ω AFAIK. (As Far As I Know). If you used 3k9Ω, it should not stop your project from working, so worry about other more important things first.

http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/tr (Italian to English?) sonde=probe (probe=detector)

I do not know how you have your battery and power circuits wired, but ideally, all voltages should go to zero when you turn detector OFF (not counting the battery voltage). Off is off. - But, why do you even have -5V on your detector? It should be about -6.5V, I think. The closer to -8V, the better. +8V, and -6.5V (or close to -6.5V) are the positive and negative rails. Look at your inverter circuit and make sure that you do not have two 47kΩ resistors where there should be two 4k7Ω. That was old mistake on schematic. (CD4024-12 should be (2x) 4k7Ω)

Go start at beginning of this thread and look at diagrams that have been posted. Read what Ivconic and Max have written, (and others, too). they may have already answered some of your questions!

[dino]

GS

First thank you Porkluvr for reply and for answering to some of my questions. Ill try to be specific as much as i can. Im building a Tesoro Golden Sabre from shematic that i found here on forum.
Im interested in the walues of elements on that shematic, and walues of elements on PCB if you know what i mean by this, i sure hope so haha.
Walue of 470ohm on shematic at tant.10mf on PCB is 470kohm. R3,3kohm on Shematic and on PCB is 3,9kohm, well im little cofused by that so if i explain you well plz some help here? Im also interested is -5V must be even if sonde is off, because when i turn off sonde -5V disapiere? And if there are some other diferences betwen Sheamtic and PCB plz let me know. And i apologise for poor speling but as i said my english is a little bad.
Reagrds Dino

[ivconic]

Nelson (Mandel)a brot....


Nelson, Max already answered correctly on your question about trimmer...

"My problem is that my TGS with TL081, runs fine, but i can not get more than 22
cms for a 1 cms coin on air."
Yes, you came to very important point where you have to take problem of making coils
more seriously.
It is obvious that you are not beginner any more, now is time to go one step further.
First, to be awared of full TGS performances, YOU MUST obtain LM308 and put on TL081 place.
Find 2 of LM308 and replace those TL081...just for a while. You will notice some
differences. You'll detect same coin at 24-25cm than...Next is to start making another
coil. You already have one coil ready and it will serve you as reference to make another-
better... Be sure that LF353 is at front end for now. Do not replace it with other...
Another important thing is 1M resistor...KT315 pointed me to it. After installing it
parallel to diode i gained much better performances...If you didnt previously, now is time
to solder it over 1N4148...look at my last schematic, you have everything there...
Next is to make coil i described last here; 255x137mm;
Wire gauge is 0.25mm (0.28mm with varnish)
For TX - 100w = 21.2ohms = 5.61mH, when constrained it should read 5.99mH
With this coil frequency should be 14.6KHz +/-200Hz
For RX - 105w = 23.4ohms = 6.18mH, when constrained it should read 6.55mH
These are exact datas of coil i made. Coil is working very good. 2cm coin at 36cm distance,
but most imortant is fact, detector is calm and stabile, no false signals at all.
Discrimination is PERFECT.
I dont see why your results are not better? You should pay much of attention on device
itself. Capacitors i used are all pollyprophilene (any syntax error?)...except those
few with picofarards values..
At RX there is 15nF = not changed, also P.P.type..
At TX also original values = not changed, also P.P. type...
All resistors are 1/8w,5%....all original values, no changes at all.
For example, if you cant find 24k than use 2 of 12k in serie, also for 200k use 2 of 100k in
serie...etc.etc.
Diodes are all 1N4148, ZD iz 4V7 (not 4V3)....Fets are J107. Transistors are as noted on sch...
Today i replaced 2N2907 with 2N3906...same, no differences...or maybe (i am sugestive) 2N3906
works even a bit better?? I am not sure, might be subjective...

So, Nelson and others...it is not clear to me why cant you gain better performances...?
Except Max! I think only Max reported very good results also....Anybody else?
Leto is conversant constructor...Hey Leto, what are your results? Come here friend! Help us...
I would like to help you more Nelson! But i really gave here most accurate datas.No more secrets.
Everything i posted is true.
The only reason of average results could be that you missed something in your work? What?
I would like to know also...
Forgot to mention nulling! Again and again; nulling is probably most important step in making
good coil...I done this so many times...again and again.It is not easy to null some coils at all!?
While,at the other hand, some coils turns to be very easy to null!? 80% of my coils i nulled
very easy, but 20% of coils (same data) gave me pretty hard time and a lot of pain to null them?
Why is that so? I guess minor differences from one to another, eventual drifts etc...
Last...i have hunch that if we use thicker wire than 0.25..but strictly on larger diammeters
formers...let's say over 24cm...than it will be better to use 0.3mm wire than 0.25mm.
I guess Max already pointed on this. I havent try yet but intend to do asap.
So i have hunch that we can gain even more depth with larger diammeter and thicker wire..?!
Intend to make 32cm coil with 0.3mm wire these days. When finished i will report here results.
Nelson, here is photo of coil i already described ....Regards!

[ivconic]

READ THIS!

Minelab CO. READ THIS !

Same supplier sold some devices with prices:

-Minelab X-Terra 70 + cc Coil = 850e
-Minelab Explorer SE + coil = 1090e
-White's DFX + 2 coils = 1700e
-Minelab Sovereign GT + coil = 960e

How about this? Ha?

Bull****!

Tesoro Golden Sabre Light is performing (right now) MUCH,MUCH BETTER ON COINS than mentioned models and to make it with 27cm coil it will cost me arround 100 euros....so...WHY THE HECK I SHOULD WASTE SO MUCH MONEY ON EXPENSIVE TOYS!?

I am enthusiastic about detectors,further i would like to have collections as Carl having....So if have chance to buy those by fair prices...than i will!
Otherwise i dont give a **** about those....especially i would not give money to some local fraud...better ask some of my friends worldvide to buy it on e-bay for me and later send by post....Isnt that true?

Yesterday, man came to me with broken Musketeert Advantage...It was not broken actually but mailfunctioning due smal crack on pcb...
When fixing it later i performed few tests with it. Was very disapointed with its performances...Musketeer Colt i had in the past was much better!
This Advantage comparing to handmade TGSL turned to be funny toy!
It could detect 2cm nickel coin at 22cm in the air, while TGSL can detect same coin at 36cm in the air...When owner saw my tests in the air...he was deeply confused and disapointed....few months ago he wasted 560e for Advantage...at the same local supplier here in Serbia...

Who is stupid here? Who is fraud? You can easilly check my claims, make TGSL and coil i described and later compare it with some "original"...
Regards!

[nelson]

Ok, thanks Max. So i ll let it has it, cause is working good to me.
Thanks

Regards

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
I think not. He said that trimmer is required to keep TL081 quiet enough... avoiding erratic beeps. You don't gain depth using the trimmer, just tune for stable operations: that's the sens you have to use then ahead (fixed) to avoid troubles.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Ok Ivconic. My problem is that my TGS with TL081, runs fine, but i can not get more than 22 cms for a 1 cms coin on air.
So has i understand, i can get a few more deep just by adding a trimmer on pcb instead of pot for sens.. Is this correct?

I just wanna make shure if this will benifit my actual performance.

Regards

Nelson


Yes Nelson i was thinking to use shielded cable to "Sence." knob....but from the other hand, what use of Sence. knob anyway? If TL081 are used, only way to make device works is to lower Sensitivity at almost lowest point and keep it "fixed"...So better to use trimmer,adjust it and forget it for good...
This doesnt affect sensitivity and depths much....maybe 1-2cm lost overall...i can live with this...can you?

Hi Nelson,
I think not. He said that trimmer is required to keep TL081 quiet enough... avoiding erratic beeps. You don't gain depth using the trimmer, just tune for stable operations: that's the sens you have to use then ahead (fixed) to avoid troubles.

Kind regards,
Max

[nelson]

Ok Ivconic. My problem is that my TGS with TL081, runs fine, but i can not get more than 22 cms for a 1 cms coin on air.
So has i understand, i can get a few more deep just by adding a trimmer on pcb instead of pot for sens.. Is this correct?

I just wanna make shure if this will benifit my actual performance.

Regards

Nelson


Yes Nelson i was thinking to use shielded cable to "Sence." knob....but from the other hand, what use of Sence. knob anyway? If TL081 are used, only way to make device works is to lower Sensitivity at almost lowest point and keep it "fixed"...So better to use trimmer,adjust it and forget it for good...
This doesnt affect sensitivity and depths much....maybe 1-2cm lost overall...i can live with this...can you?

[Max]

Rain,flood,thunders..! I cant be logged here for longer, it is risk to burn my pc..... So i'll be quick;
Yes Nelson i was thinking to use shielded cable to "Sence." knob....but from the other hand, what use of Sence. knob anyway? If TL081 are used, only way to make device works is to lower Sensitivity at almost lowest point and keep it "fixed"...So better to use trimmer,adjust it and forget it for good...
This doesnt affect sensitivity and depths much....maybe 1-2cm lost overall...i can live with this...can you?
Of course until find LM308 to buy by reasonable price, cose there are few suppliers here in Serbia, asking much money for LM308...from 5 up to 11 euros !!!! This offends my intelligency so i am refusing to waste such money on obsolete op-amp...I'll rather use TL081 which cost 50cents... Suppliers drop dead! Keep those LM308 and enjoy having them....Hah,hah,hah!!!!

Also there is another situation here....very funny....Dont have conditions to write here and now, but i will prepare detailed text and post in a day or two..
It is about selling Minelab X-Terra coils for 180 euros by piece!!!!
Local Minelab "agent" (i doubt Minelab is awared of this one..."agent") is claiming that prices are raised cose to many people here in Serbia are "hacking" those coils and making copies.....so they had to raise prices!!!???
What a stupid logic???
If somebody offer me coils by fair prices i WOULD NOT MAKE NAITHER ONE MORE COIL IN MY LIFE!!! I WOULD RATHER PAY FOR ORIGINAL ONE!
Guys from Minelab read this and think! Come here in Serbia, open shop and i'll be your favorite customer...i swear!

For example Tesoro...? Why should i bug myself making coils for Golden Sabre if Tesoro offers me, here in Serbia, their coils by fair prices...? i 'll rather pay 80-100 euros for one good Tesoro coil than to waste money,nervs,material to make handmade.....I am not that enthusiast!

No, those idiots are not "agents" those are frauds and thieves, buying Minelab coils for 80-120 euros abroad and that trying to sell by almost double prices here....Who is stupid here?

Minelab Co. should be introduced with this situation here....Also other big "players".....Serbia is small country yet very interesting market for those, due huge nuber of propsectors...

Hi Ivconic,
I agree on coils... too hi-prices for new original coils. Even some that are of the few reasoning manifacturers on the price of detectors and accessories ask sometimes too much.

I've some originals and I'm happy with them, bought at reasonable price... but sometimes looking on the net... oh man! So hi prices!

Not to talk of some "top-of-the-range" manifacturers that for me are somehow crazy asking e.g. 200 eur for a standard-size VLF coil !

Not to talk of other kind of original coils... even higher prices !

They are mad, from my point of view... I mean they made big bargains of course... but one must be out of control for to sell a bunch of copper wire and some plastic/epoxy for 300 or more eur... or maybe buyers are crazy... anyway....

Yes, tuning, machinery, good materials etc etc of course, but too hi-prices for common mortals! Price is totally unrealistic !

Probably production cost is under 10$ each for coils e.g. untill 11'' diameter. That's the problem.

It's a kind of joke... if they sell at low prices people could start thinking "these coils are not soo good, can't be..."... and so a genius of marketing have suggested them of selling hi-price as they can!
They have no shame !

I can buy e.g. a complete VLF made in China for 15eur (even working) and have to spend 300eur for a brand coil cause of some marketing genius !???

They use power on price to keep it high cause most of people cannot build a good VLF coil ! Haven't enough skills! Here is their power.

That's where this forum is great I think. Democratic.

Here even few skilled people can make their coil... and then leave the BIG COMPANIES stay with their original 300eur coils on the shelf.

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Thunders !


Rain,flood,thunders..! I cant be logged here for longer, it is risk to burn my pc..... So i'll be quick;
Yes Nelson i was thinking to use shielded cable to "Sence." knob....but from the other hand, what use of Sence. knob anyway? If TL081 are used, only way to make device works is to lower Sensitivity at almost lowest point and keep it "fixed"...So better to use trimmer,adjust it and forget it for good...
This doesnt affect sensitivity and depths much....maybe 1-2cm lost overall...i can live with this...can you?
Of course until find LM308 to buy by reasonable price, cose there are few suppliers here in Serbia, asking much money for LM308...from 5 up to 11 euros !!!! This offends my intelligency so i am refusing to waste such money on obsolete op-amp...I'll rather use TL081 which cost 50cents... Suppliers drop dead! Keep those LM308 and enjoy having them....Hah,hah,hah!!!!

Also there is another situation here....very funny....Dont have conditions to write here and now, but i will prepare detailed text and post in a day or two..
It is about selling Minelab X-Terra coils for 180 euros by piece!!!!
Local Minelab "agent" (i doubt Minelab is awared of this one..."agent") is claiming that prices are raised cose to many people here in Serbia are "hacking" those coils and making copies.....so they had to raise prices!!!???
What a stupid logic???
If somebody offer me coils by fair prices i WOULD NOT MAKE NAITHER ONE MORE COIL IN MY LIFE!!! I WOULD RATHER PAY FOR ORIGINAL ONE!
Guys from Minelab read this and think! Come here in Serbia, open shop and i'll be your favorite customer...i swear!

For example Tesoro...? Why should i bug myself making coils for Golden Sabre if Tesoro offers me, here in Serbia, their coils by fair prices...? i 'll rather pay 80-100 euros for one good Tesoro coil than to waste money,nervs,material to make handmade.....I am not that enthusiast!

No, those idiots are not "agents" those are frauds and thieves, buying Minelab coils for 80-120 euros abroad and that trying to sell by almost double prices here....Who is stupid here?

Minelab Co. should be introduced with this situation here....Also other big "players".....Serbia is small country yet very interesting market for those, due huge nuber of propsectors...

[porkluvr]

notch = reject

Hello all. I done my sonde 255*137mm with wire 0.25.
RX 108 TX 102 coils
power +8V-6,27V
max range 40cm
coin 5cm
no dicrimination.
Is it correct PCB or Shematic? And I dont qiute undrstand the meaning of NOCH.... sorry bad english.
Regards Dino

Hello Dino -
Notch means reject, nadir. Are you building the Golden Sabre or the GS Lite (GS, GSL)? Notch should not be issue if you built GSL.

If you built GS, then maybe you should switch the notch circuit off. Eliminate notch until everything else is working OK.

When you say "is it correct", which variation are you talking about? Be specific. If you have detection at 40 CM, something must be working, so that may be a good start, but you must try to explain which version that you are building.

[dino]

GS

Hello all. I done my sonde 255*137mm with wire 0.25.
RX 108 TX 102 coils
power +8V-6,27V
max range 40cm
coin 5cm
no dicrimination.
Is it correct PCB or Shematic? And I dont qiute undrstand the meaning of NOCH.... sorry bad english.
Regards Dino

[Max]

Hi,
Max.
I have used the same picture to see what is the LM317T pinconfiguration.
I used LM317T,1N4007 diode and 20 ohm resistor wired the way that you show.
You told me to charge over night or for 12 hours.
I make the same thing.
I now that have mistake somewhere but can't find what exacly.
When the batteries were new with their own charge they were working fine,but now when I charge them its look like 3 cells are damaged.
I have spend much money around this suply variant!!
THANKS

Hi,
problem is that with this kind of batteries one can't make mistakes... or for sure it will result in a damage to the cells.

This is the real "limit" of most charger schematics... respect e.g. to bought chargers.
Otherwise they work well if proper wired and a bit of extra care is taken to prevent damages... the first thing to look at is the current delivered when charge start. Current must stay always under safe limit so cannot be e.g. above 1/4 of battery capacity, much better if low as 1/10 of it.

Circuit like the ones I've posted are in practice current limiters based on LM317 plus some extra components e.g. in the second schematic.

Are easy... and they work if properly built and used... but if e.g. the LM317 have problems e.g. a thermal runaway cause heatsink too small etc they could give catastrophic effects.

The best thing to do in the hypotesis that cases happen is always put a fuse on the supply side, I mean or an auto-fuse (e.g. 250mA fast) or a normal old type for higher current limits... so if things go wrong you could lose the fuse as maximum damage but not the battery ! Next time put a fuse with double current rating of your charging limit.

Wasting money is always an hard lesson but sometimes is also useful lesson!

Kind regards,
Max