TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[Ultimate_Haze]

Here are some test targets to be more specific in future.
A-10C US;B-25C US;C-one pound GB;D-1Euro cent;E-10Euro cent;F-1dinar1974;G-2Euro coin.
1-rusty iron thing;2-rusty half of horse shoe;3,4,5-hot rocks/or mix with melted iron with different size/;6 is my favorite hot rock;7 coca cola can;

We now that we should expect:
*1e coin = 32 to 36cm in air
*cola can = 55cm in air
if device is ready.

Ups I forget there is also 3,5 cm brass I think ring.Which turns to be most favorite target for TGSL.

[Ultimate_Haze]

Hello,
Last two days I made few more coil.This time DD27.The target sound is better now.But still low sens.No matter what coil I use still same old low depth!Last few are:TX=5,5mH RX=6,0mH;TH=6.0mH RX=6,5mH.
So I suspect something in wrong in RX part of PCB.Because the sound looks ok.I cant find post about this specific situation.And until now I have made 8 coils for this device and all work but with same problem.Looks like I will need some more help.
The last thing that left is to try a little bit higher inductance like 6,1-6,2 and 6,6-6,7 for example.
Have a nice day.

[ivconic]

"..I get what you're saying -- just difference in how we work. I like to bundle exact schematic with a PCB for troubleshooting -- it makes sense to me...."

It is making sense to me too. It was just a matter of time i hadn't than.

"But makes more clutter here, so maybe I'll just do it in another thread. I was offering to do work for you, just checking with you since you are author of schematic, that's all."

So far as i am concerned, you are free to do what ever you prefer with it. If i can help somehow i will. I just have to insist on reading whole thread. Cose you are not the only one who is asking. Numerous people already repeated same questions many time...You see?

"You've probably heard this one: "an expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field"..."

Well...than i am expert of all experts!

"...As for my "joke" about secrets, won't make that one again, obviously doesn't translate! But please forgive people who bug you because it's true that "experienced people" have more knowledge than they are aware of. ..."

Ha,ha...i knew you were joking. I reacted not for you but for other people here. As my English is not perfect, i can only imagine how would understand simillar jokes those with even less knowing of English language.
So...strategic acting is MUST from time to time. This is forum....sometimes we must do something less popular to prevent missunderstandings in future. You are not some spring chicken - i know you will understand.


"..You're right; I read a lot, but still lazy...

Ok, back to enjoying hobby...!

Best regards,

-SB...."

Sure thing. No bad feelings.
Regards

[simonbaker]

Ok,ok..no problem. And please stay away from calling me expert. I am far away from being any expert in any thing. "Trial&Error" is my middle name. All i achieved in my life was using trial&error method. Do i need to mention "head against the wall" problem here?? So...what expert you are talking about?
It is long and complicated thread indeed. But even better. Systematic reading and taking notes from only important posts man can learn whole problematic about TGS very easy. Just need time and to be pationate.
It is the same old schematic , nothing crucial changed.
Reason i didnt updated schematics and pcb's regullary is cose no need for that. If only one small thing was changed than no need to repost again whole schematic and ocupate even more space here.
You want final solution. No such thing here. Goal is not to set final schematic and pcb and say " Ok..that was all, good night and good bye".
Goal is to constantly mod it and try to improve a bit more. This is our hobby , remember!? All you have to do is to choose one from offered pcb's and establish it as starting console for further experimenting. In case you only want final metal detector for prospecting and do not want to play more arround it, than same thing - take any version you like and make it. You will be satisfied.
No bad version there. All versions are working very good.
TGS has notch function, TGSL has not. Later TGSL versions just have smaller changes. Mostly i experimented arround audio. Wanted to achieve something with it. There were few misses, like that version with monostable mode. It is working but not so useable on real soil cose works very unstabille. Etc..etc..
Last one with BD140 is probably the best one. Although 1265 version also works fantastic. Schematics i posted latelly are just holding minor corrections and are there just to illustrate some ideas. But also you can use original TGS schematic and looking at it make last BD140 version...What's a big deal?
All you have to do is to skimly look this thread and to read some of posts.
Just go from page 1 and list all the pages. Try to spot interesting posts and take notes. This is method i am also using when search through some large thread and look for the things that interesting me.

You said you are beginer? So what? I am also beginner in many things. This does not give you right to suspect me or Max to hold some "secrets" upon this or any other project here. Simply no secrets at all here.
Regards!

Oh yes, btw..name me a list of all discrepancies you noticed and i wil be glad to correct those and answer.
From all i remember rigth now, you asked abut last 358 and is it really tied to +12v... So..if you list back all versions to first one , you will notice that same situation on all schematics.
So... ?
Although..to help you about any doubt - you may supply it from +8V also..not a big deal. Nothing changes in proper md functioning.
It was originally tied to +12V due battery check, which you can see on original schematic and can not see on my schematics cose i removed it long time ago. But also you can search and find my post where i explained in details why i removed it from schematic and pcb. So...only thing you need is to go back to page 1 and start reading from there...sorry!
Beer for you too! Cheers!

I get what you're saying -- just difference in how we work. I like to bundle exact schematic with a PCB for troubleshooting -- it makes sense to me. But makes more clutter here, so maybe I'll just do it in another thread. I was offering to do work for you, just checking with you since you are author of schematic, that's all.

You've probably heard this one: "an expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field".

As for my "joke" about secrets, won't make that one again, obviously doesn't translate! But please forgive people who bug you because it's true that "experienced people" have more knowledge than they are aware of.

You're right; I read a lot, but still lazy...

Ok, back to enjoying hobby...!

Best regards,

-SB

[Max]

It might be a crazy idea, as it adds noise to the system…
As I believe the detection depth is related with amplitude of TX signal, why not doubling the voltage at the oscillator with a circuit such as the ICL7660?
Please share your thoughts
Kind regards

Hi,
it's not crazy idea... just you need a compromise at the end... when pushing up the TX power other problems start to negatively impact the S/N ratio and that's the key in hi performances: keeping highest as possible the S/N ratio.

When increase TX field you'll notice increased side effects like greater ground signal influence... you can balance out but all become more instable.

The better is stay up as possible with S/N which means increase TX power but also the noise rejection of system and rx path in general, then having more useful signal than before and lowered noise. It's not easy as just doubling TX voltage... the round-trip of EM signals need you increase 64times TX power to just double detection depth!

In the air it's not an issue... you can multiply really...also 64 times the power of tx and thus achieve effective DOUBLED detection depth... I saw and made VLFs that detect 1eur at an incredible distance (maybe I made an LRL, who knows?) but I know also that projects like AnkerSS60 and later can do similar... if remember well Anker detects 1eur at 50cms in air... with not big coil...but then... on soil: there are troubles... devices are too HOT this way... you are always digging false signals... no way to keep them quiet or run really at that perfomances...

So... compromise is the key, and preserving highest S/N.

Kind regards,
Max

[xix]

It might be a crazy idea, as it adds noise to the system…
As I believe the detection depth is related with amplitude of TX signal, why not doubling the voltage at the oscillator with a circuit such as the ICL7660?
Please share your thoughts
Kind regards

[ivconic]

Hey man, I was joking -- maybe I haven't "earned" the right here. Fine. Obviously you are the expert everyone wants to ask questions of -- that says it all. And by the way, I do appreciate all the hard, good work you have shared -- I know you didn't have to.

Look, I'll stand by my opinion that this is one long complicated thread with plenty of corrections, changes, modifications, and variations. I'm no good at building metal detectors, but if I can contribute by helping clarify this for beginners like me, I think that is fair.



Really? So why does TGSL Final PCB not match schematic you posted? Truth is I spend a hell of a lot of time reading this information and I'm the only one to notice that there is a small discrepancy. I hope that is a contribution, not a criticism. That is the purpose of the thread, more eyes looking, more minds thinking, we all win.

Anyway, sorry my joke misunderstood. I have great admiration for what I know about you from this website, too bad you're too far away to buy a beer, but here's to you for now!

Best regards,

-SB

Ok,ok..no problem. And please stay away from calling me expert. I am far away from being any expert in any thing. "Trial&Error" is my middle name. All i achieved in my life was using trial&error method. Do i need to mention "head against the wall" problem here?? So...what expert you are talking about?
It is long and complicated thread indeed. But even better. Systematic reading and taking notes from only important posts man can learn whole problematic about TGS very easy. Just need time and to be pationate.
It is the same old schematic , nothing crucial changed.
Reason i didnt updated schematics and pcb's regullary is cose no need for that. If only one small thing was changed than no need to repost again whole schematic and ocupate even more space here.
You want final solution. No such thing here. Goal is not to set final schematic and pcb and say " Ok..that was all, good night and good bye".
Goal is to constantly mod it and try to improve a bit more. This is our hobby , remember!? All you have to do is to choose one from offered pcb's and establish it as starting console for further experimenting. In case you only want final metal detector for prospecting and do not want to play more arround it, than same thing - take any version you like and make it. You will be satisfied.
No bad version there. All versions are working very good.
TGS has notch function, TGSL has not. Later TGSL versions just have smaller changes. Mostly i experimented arround audio. Wanted to achieve something with it. There were few misses, like that version with monostable mode. It is working but not so useable on real soil cose works very unstabille. Etc..etc..
Last one with BD140 is probably the best one. Although 1265 version also works fantastic. Schematics i posted latelly are just holding minor corrections and are there just to illustrate some ideas. But also you can use original TGS schematic and looking at it make last BD140 version...What's a big deal?
All you have to do is to skimly look this thread and to read some of posts.
Just go from page 1 and list all the pages. Try to spot interesting posts and take notes. This is method i am also using when search through some large thread and look for the things that interesting me.

You said you are beginer? So what? I am also beginner in many things. This does not give you right to suspect me or Max to hold some "secrets" upon this or any other project here. Simply no secrets at all here.
Regards!

Oh yes, btw..name me a list of all discrepancies you noticed and i wil be glad to correct those and answer.
From all i remember rigth now, you asked abut last 358 and is it really tied to +12v... So..if you list back all versions to first one , you will notice that same situation on all schematics.
So... ?
Although..to help you about any doubt - you may supply it from +8V also..not a big deal. Nothing changes in proper md functioning.
It was originally tied to +12V due battery check, which you can see on original schematic and can not see on my schematics cose i removed it long time ago. But also you can search and find my post where i explained in details why i removed it from schematic and pcb. So...only thing you need is to go back to page 1 and start reading from there...sorry!
Beer for you too! Cheers!

[simonbaker]

Magician !? No... much more!

No... joking... , Ivconic's is right about thta stuff... the project is complete and accurate... anyone can replicate if enough skills, patience and money/time (very few indeed cause uses very ordinary components, apart fancy older LM308 stuff... all the rest is about junk level components today...)... for money I also consider that people who wanna top-performance must have a scope... or sacrifice time in experiments doing much coils than if having the scope handy.

That's all clone it... make it work and tune for best performances.

With e.g. PCB of TGSL by Ivconic you'll get wonderful behaviour... less chatters, less noise and increased fun!
Coils you know recipes... now have also many but results you said are with old DD coil Ivconic's design... very good and stable coil design, very hi performances if tuned ok.

Now... 32cm on air for 1eur!? Why not ? Why not more ?

Much more I will say... but all depends on HOW you replicate device... not on schematic or PCB layout file... much depends on you, that's the point.

When pushing things to the limit the stuff become HOT... you have to deal with extreme solutions also... choose right shield as example... minimize noise at circuit so use metallic enclosure, extra faraday cage and gnd coverage on board etc etc all no-standard but this will be an extra at performance. You'll select components also... choose what's best for what etc

What I'm trying to say is that average performance everyone can do ...it's like formula1 ...all depends on skills and money/time you have to spend... then you can be always in pole position or 10 lines back... depends on you and your attitude to success.

Kind regards,
Max

Those are the insights we appreciate from you experts. I'll keep trying to get a "standard" model working, then see about making it "hotter" with those ideas.

Cheers,

-SB

[simonbaker]

"...who can make metal detectors do things no one else can and have secret formulas..."

To tell you the truth; i dont like to be considered that way. Very bad thing if more people thinking the same way as you. Than all i posted here was for nothing - huge waste of time and energy.
This directly look as simillar charlatanism from Remote Sensing threads...i dont like that at all.
So...i should feel huge guilt cose nobody else (except Max and me) can not achieve 32cm in air for 1e coin????!!!
What a blast!? All the time i was blind here, beleiving that am accepted fairly here. Now i discovered (thanks to you) that actually i was considered here as plain fool by other members??? Plain fool who is posting rubbish and lie arround about results!??
Here in local...very near by my place, there are also 3 enthusiasts - beginners who already made dozen copies of TGSL. Those handmades are working even better. Much better than my handmades. I visited those guys and was pretty amazed with what i saw than. Also i am oftenly receiving mails from people arround the world with very nice reports and results they achieved. So...Max and me are not the only one. 32cm in air for 1e coin is nothing - not some achievement at all. Take any better detector on market and you will see much better air results... for example take Minelab Explorer Se or White's DFX and you will see twice better results...if not more better.
So i dont really understand such attitude...
Anyway, thank you very much for opening my eyes. In future i will take much care here, what to post and if i will post at all...
Very Best Regards!


Ah yes..about schematic, you should know that i only changed few things on TGS. Not much and nothing important changed there.
But to know that you must read this thread from the begininig, follow posts and understand what was posted.
So ...yes...that first schematic is original and most accurate. So as my last reduced TGSL schematic. In the between all other versions are also accurate and compatible with first one. You should know that already...but you didnt.

Hey man, I was joking -- maybe I haven't "earned" the right here. Fine. Obviously you are the expert everyone wants to ask questions of -- that says it all. And by the way, I do appreciate all the hard, good work you have shared -- I know you didn't have to.

Look, I'll stand by my opinion that this is one long complicated thread with plenty of corrections, changes, modifications, and variations. I'm no good at building metal detectors, but if I can contribute by helping clarify this for beginners like me, I think that is fair.

So ...yes...that first schematic is original and most accurate. So as my last reduced TGSL schematic. In the between all other versions are also accurate and compatible with first one. You should know that already...but you didnt

Really? So why does TGSL Final PCB not match schematic you posted? Truth is I spend a hell of a lot of time reading this information and I'm the only one to notice that there is a small discrepancy. I hope that is a contribution, not a criticism. That is the purpose of the thread, more eyes looking, more minds thinking, we all win.

Anyway, sorry my joke misunderstood. I have great admiration for what I know about you from this website, too bad you're too far away to buy a beer, but here's to you for now!

Best regards,

-SB

[Max]

It is my running joke that you and Max are magicians who can make metal detectors do things no one else can and have secret formulas... maybe I'm only one chuckling...

Yes, I see on that first schematic U107 is indeed attached to battery 12V+ -- I had not noticed that. Just about every other schematic shows it as regulator 8V+. How can we trust schematic when changed later... was it a mistake or truth????

I am beginner so I like things simple-stupid as possible. A PCB should match a schematic, not part of one schematic here, another there, for beginners like me. So I nitpick and make little corrections to help me and other beginners, no criticism intended. I also like to question what is best practice and why. Maybe annoying, but someone has to do it...

Cheers,

-SB

Magician !? No... much more!

No... joking... , Ivconic's is right about thta stuff... the project is complete and accurate... anyone can replicate if enough skills, patience and money/time (very few indeed cause uses very ordinary components, apart fancy older LM308 stuff... all the rest is about junk level components today...)... for money I also consider that people who wanna top-performance must have a scope... or sacrifice time in experiments doing much coils than if having the scope handy.

That's all clone it... make it work and tune for best performances.

With e.g. PCB of TGSL by Ivconic you'll get wonderful behaviour... less chatters, less noise and increased fun!
Coils you know recipes... now have also many but results you said are with old DD coil Ivconic's design... very good and stable coil design, very hi performances if tuned ok.

Now... 32cm on air for 1eur!? Why not ? Why not more ?

Much more I will say... but all depends on HOW you replicate device... not on schematic or PCB layout file... much depends on you, that's the point.

When pushing things to the limit the stuff become HOT... you have to deal with extreme solutions also... choose right shield as example... minimize noise at circuit so use metallic enclosure, extra faraday cage and gnd coverage on board etc etc all no-standard but this will be an extra at performance. You'll select components also... choose what's best for what etc

What I'm trying to say is that average performance everyone can do ...it's like formula1 ...all depends on skills and money/time you have to spend... then you can be always in pole position or 10 lines back... depends on you and your attitude to success.

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Last time about this;
TGS/TGSL as any other work must be done very precisely. Coil demands huge attention and patience to be made correctly - only way possiblle.
Disregard any aside comments, focus on one schematic (doesnt matter which one) and make it. All versions already posted here are accurate. So as all pcb's. Each one will work very good if was made good.
If you cant achieve noted results - dont blame me,Max or anybody else. Blame your own impatience and inattention in process of making your handmade. Do not consider me as liar and charlatan cose i dont have slitest reason to "pumpup" reports here. No money involved...so why should i risk and lie? It is not some sf LRL device - it is ordinary,obsolete, analogue metal detector, projected far back in '80-s....very easy to reproduct in homemade arrangement.
So...what's a big deal???

[ivconic]

It is my running joke that you and Max are magicians who can make metal detectors do things no one else can and have secret formulas... maybe I'm only one chuckling...

Yes, I see on that first schematic U107 is indeed attached to battery 12V+ -- I had not noticed that. Just about every other schematic shows it as regulator 8V+. How can we trust schematic when changed later... was it a mistake or truth????

I am beginner so I like things simple-stupid as possible. A PCB should match a schematic, not part of one schematic here, another there, for beginners like me. So I nitpick and make little corrections to help me and other beginners, no criticism intended. I also like to question what is best practice and why. Maybe annoying, but someone has to do it...

Cheers,

-SB

"...who can make metal detectors do things no one else can and have secret formulas..."

To tell you the truth; i dont like to be considered that way. Very bad thing if more people thinking the same way as you. Than all i posted here was for nothing - huge waste of time and energy.
This directly look as simillar charlatanism from Remote Sensing threads...i dont like that at all.
So...i should feel huge guilt cose nobody else (except Max and me) can not achieve 32cm in air for 1e coin????!!!
What a blast!? All the time i was blind here, beleiving that am accepted fairly here. Now i discovered (thanks to you) that actually i was considered here as plain fool by other members??? Plain fool who is posting rubbish and lie arround about results!??
Here in local...very near by my place, there are also 3 enthusiasts - beginners who already made dozen copies of TGSL. Those handmades are working even better. Much better than my handmades. I visited those guys and was pretty amazed with what i saw than. Also i am oftenly receiving mails from people arround the world with very nice reports and results they achieved. So...Max and me are not the only one. 32cm in air for 1e coin is nothing - not some achievement at all. Take any better detector on market and you will see much better air results... for example take Minelab Explorer Se or White's DFX and you will see twice better results...if not more better.
So i dont really understand such attitude...
Anyway, thank you very much for opening my eyes. In future i will take much care here, what to post and if i will post at all...
Very Best Regards!


Ah yes..about schematic, you should know that i only changed few things on TGS. Not much and nothing important changed there.
But to know that you must read this thread from the begininig, follow posts and understand what was posted.
So ...yes...that first schematic is original and most accurate. So as my last reduced TGSL schematic. In the between all other versions are also accurate and compatible with first one. You should know that already...but you didnt.

[simonbaker]

No it is not secret at all!?
It is posted on very first page of this thread;

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1977&d=1174874259

See?

It is my running joke that you and Max are magicians who can make metal detectors do things no one else can and have secret formulas... maybe I'm only one chuckling...

Yes, I see on that first schematic U107 is indeed attached to battery 12V+ -- I had not noticed that. Just about every other schematic shows it as regulator 8V+. How can we trust schematic when changed later... was it a mistake or truth????

I am beginner so I like things simple-stupid as possible. A PCB should match a schematic, not part of one schematic here, another there, for beginners like me. So I nitpick and make little corrections to help me and other beginners, no criticism intended. I also like to question what is best practice and why. Maybe annoying, but someone has to do it...

Cheers,

-SB

[Ultimate_Haze]

Hi,
Max.
I have try with silver coin and silver chain.
Can be seen small voltage drop.But that's rely close to coil for both items.I am preparing some videos.

SB.I will try this ASAP.Your words make sense.

Fitos.I am using BF245C.If you say so I will replace with new once.Now I have few PN4393 will test them too.

Ivconic.Soon there will be no place for such questions.As everything is already discused here.Rely hugh thread. And now its almost complete.Best amateur project ever.More complete then magnum and all.

[ivconic]

Looking at some questions and remarks here (least reffered to your question about schematic), on these pages...i oftenly ask my self: " Heck! Does people open and read all what was posted here?"
So much already posted and told here....
Aint not such thing as "secret" on TGS/TGSL subject any more here...
Everything already "chewed" so many times!
Just follow posts and read....